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Saturday, February 16, 2008

Extreme Jump In Logic Of The Week

4th letter's David Brothers gets the award for biggest jump in logic for the week, taking my statement that "DC African-American superheroes have largely been written blandly" to this:

"Going by her logic, I got some family members who’re gonna be hoodlums their whole life and are going to be worthless because of that fact. You go to jail and come out a different man? Who cares, dog, you’re still a criminal."

Wow.

Seems to me, David, the real shame is that John Irons had to be originally cast in Superman's image, not his own.

That John Stewart had to be cast in Green Lantern/Hal Jordan's image, not his own.

That Jakeem Thunder had to be cast in Johnny Lightning's image, not his own.

That Shilo Norman had to be cast in Mister Miracle's image, not his own.

That Ryan Choi had to be cast in The Atom's image, not his own.

That Kathy Kane had to be cast in Batman's image, not her own.

Do you know why that happens, David, behind-the-scenes?

Because editors are afraid that a non-white non-male non-straight character cannot lead their own comic unless they are tied in to a preexisting character. Because there is the perception behind-the-scenes that "women books don't sell," that "Black books don't sell," "that books with gays don't sell," etc.

You think I'm making it up?

You think when I say I've heard editors say "Black books don't sell," I'm lying? You think when I say I've heard editors say "we already have a Black book on the schedule, we don't have room for another," I'm lying?

As for Firestorm -- I was THERE to witness behind-the-scenes what took place regarding Jason Rusch. Were you? I had the corporate memo regarding diversity in my hands. Then I was asked to think of characters of color we could "plug" into the JLA. "Plug."

You think it's racist to find John Irons bland? You think that's the real issue? When I find characters like Gunn from Angel, Blade, Cloak, Misty Knight, Storm, and T'Challa awesome? That I think, on a whole, Marvel has more compelling African-American characters than DC? Do you see a racist agenda in that? Know what all the aforementioned characters have in common? THEY WERE CAST IN THEIR OWN IMAGE!

The real issue is that there are not more characters of color heading their own books that are NOT derived from originally-white superheroes.

The real issue is that there are not more people of color in high positions in mainstream comic book publishing.

The real issue is that there seems to be a deficit of talented writers like Dwayne McDuffie (or Marv Wolfman!) who not only can make these characters interesting -- but have the inclination and interest to.

But you know what -- I'm not letting that post embitter me into being afraid to keep agitating for diversity in comics for people of color, for women, or for people of different sexual orientations or religious faiths. I'm not going to stop posting about how I think people of color could be better written in comics just because I'm afraid of a blogger like you misinterpreting it.

And, I said it before, and I'll say it again: you get true diversity in comics by having a diverse editorial staff and roster of creative talent. Then the diversity flows organically. At Acclaim Comics, we had a diverse staff and diverse talent, and we never had to "plug" in diversity. The character "Quantum" in "Quantum and Woody" stood on his own as a fascinating character -- written by Christopher Priest, who would later make Black Panther so compelling and such a headlining character.

Compared to Quantum, Black Panther, Blade -- and even the Bendis-penned Luke Cage (though he has been a bit whiny last issue) -- John Irons, to me, is just not that interesting. So sue me. You know who is more interesting to me than Vixen, who has been better characterized in a handful of issues than Vixen has been in her entire existence? Gauntlet from Avengers: The Initiative as written by Dan Slott.

So, David Brothers, if you think the real problem with race in comics today is my tacit inability to find John Irons compelling, if you think I have a racist agenda because I think Blade is cooler than Mr. Terrific, if you think the real issue we should be focusing on is that I closed comments as the result of an obnoxious poster, if you think me saying "there should be more interesting superheroes of color" = me hurling slurs to your entire family, then I'm sorry. We clearly disagree, we do not see eye-to-eye, we are not on the same page.

So feel free to pick apart this post, show how I'm stupid and you're smart, how I clearly don't know anything I'm talking about. I expect it. I don't care. I'm enjoying my weekend.

26 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  2. Ms. D'Orazio,

    A few notes on your blog post.

    1) The selection you quoted from David's Blog is in reaction to comments made by Jenn Fang of Reappropriate. They are not in reference in you.

    2) No one to my knowledge believes you comments were racist or insensitive to minorities. It wasn't even something alluded in any blog posts that I know of. Your post is the first time anyone has called you or your comments that.

    David and my blog posts were attempts to engender conversation about race in comics. Being part of the business, I know that David and I would love to see you continue the conversations that are actually in our articles. We'll follow your blog awaiting such a response.

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  3. 1) David wrote, "I’m gonna be honest and say that Val’s post up top there is what prompted this one."

    The post David is referring to is the one called "The Sambo Samba."

    2) No, the entire post was an attack on my statement that I thought DC superheroes of color were bland. Somehow that got twisted in ways that I admit I couldn't have dreamt up in a million years.

    And I'm really offended because I used to argue both when I was in editorial and on my blog now that comics are lightyears behind on diversity issues.

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  4. 4th letter's David Brothers gets the award for biggest jump in logic for the week, taking my statement that "DC African-American superheroes have largely been written blandly" to this:

    Two paragraphs up from the comment you're referring to:
    This isn’t the first time I’ve had this issue with somebody. Around a year ago, I got into an argument with a different blogger.

    You're responding and taking offense to something that wasn't even about you. There were two halves to my post, essentially: bland/editorial and reappropriation.

    So feel free to pick apart this post, show how I'm stupid and you're smart, how I clearly don't know anything I'm talking about. I expect it. I don't care. I'm enjoying my weekend.

    I'd like to kill this noise right here-- if you think I'm doing this to show how smart I am or how dumb you are, you're dead wrong. I don't care about e-cred or trolling or whatever. I've got a blog, I like to talk, and I'd like to think that discussion is more constructive than e-beef.

    I took issue with your statement that editorially mandated black characters are somehow lesser than ones who have a brand new lineage and posted half a post on it.

    If you'd like to discuss that, I'd be more than willing to engage in a bit of back and forth.

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  5. Also I didn't, and wouldn't, call you or your actions/words racist. Just to clear the air on that.

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  6. Hi David, I don't want to have a conflict with you. I realize that I am seeing the characters you are passionate about from a different lens because of my observations from within the business. I think we both want pretty much the same thing -- awesome characters that we can identify with. I know this is my goal concerning female characters. If you want to enter into dialog about this issue, or can suggest solutions or ways we can address these issues on the blog as to create positive change, I am all for it.

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  7. What's Jakeem Thunder have to do with model racecars?

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  8. Anonymous2:47 AM

    Chris Sims, you wonderful smartass, will you marry me?

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  9. You got health insurance?

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  10. Anonymous2:52 AM

    I have Tech Support.

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  11. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  12. Is Acclaim really the best example considering how the company failed?

    The only real agenda that exist for the comic companies is the color of green, not sex or race. So far, despite attempts, going diverse hasn't been a financial boom and thats is the only thing that companies care about. Thats about as sinister as it gets.

    If black characters suddenly started making money, you can bet that all kinds of new black characters would be created to help make more green.

    In the end, just throwing characters, writers, and editors of X race at the problem isn't enough if the readers support the attempt with their dollars.

    Since diversity attempts have failed for years now for mostly that reason, does that make the readers racist/sexist because they don't support attempts to diversify comics with their purchases (which ultimately is the only "vote" that matters)?

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  13. Wow Chris, you're the first one to reduce the whole conversation to a point about a mistake I made on DC trivia. You win the battle of teh internets! Don't forget to tell your friends:

    "Yeah, she wrote this big long thing about race -- but then she got Johnny Thunder's name wrong! Can you believe it?"

    "I hope you made a quip out of it!"

    "Do you think I would let that one slip? Of course I did!"

    "What did you say?"

    "I made a joke about race cars!"

    "OMG!"

    "I know! LOL!"

    "ROTFL!"

    "I don't know about you, but my weekend has been made."

    "I might not even leave the house."

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  14. oh, snap! looks like it's time for chris sims to move out of his mother's basement, because he is a nerd!

    I'm pretty sure Sims was just kidding around, joshing if you will. Obviously I can't speak for him though. Was his smartass reference to comic nerd minutae really so terrible? Please, chill out, I know it's not very nice to be called a "coward" in some other blog's comment box after speaking out on an issue you feel passionately about, but lashing out and yelling is not going to help anybody's cause.

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  15. I was laughing even before Sims made his quip.

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  16. yowzers.

    I plan to not further this discussion at all by saying that I think that the Steel character is pretty cool in concept (in my opinion).

    Totally self made man with a big giant sledge hammer for smashing things.

    Maybe my memories of him are more from the Superman series, but he's pretty awesome as long as things get smashed.

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  17. Why are you getting so defensive about racecars, Val?

    Could it be that you're a... racecarist?!

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  18. Is Acclaim really the best example considering how the company failed?

    They may have gone under financially, but, did they fail artistically?

    Sorry, its just a pet peeve of mine, conflating sales with quality. You can't tell me Ultimates 3 #1 was a better book than Blue Beetle and keep a straight face. I dares ya. ^_^

    (Would've picked an Acclaim example, but I don't know enough about them to make a call.)

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  20. BREAKING NEWS. URGENT.

    HEADLINE: Comics blogger known for making fun of random stupid errors by everyone, including himself, has a cheap laugh.

    FILM AT ELEVEN.

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  21. Dear Valerie-
    You are sending out some confusing signals here. You've created quite a disconnect with these statements.

    First you say this:
    Where is the African-American Guy Gardner? Where is the African-American Batman? Where is the African-American Joker? Booster Gold/Ted Kord Blue Beetle? Oracle? Wolverine? Spider-Man?


    Then you say this:
    Seems to me, David, the real shame is that John Irons had to be originally cast in Superman's image, not his own.

    That John Stewart had to be cast in Green Lantern/Hal Jordan's image, not his own.

    That Jakeem Thunder had to be cast in Johnny Lightning's image, not his own.

    That Shilo Norman had to be cast in Mister Miracle's image, not his own.

    That Ryan Choi had to be cast in The Atom's image, not his own.

    That Kathy Kane had to be cast in Batman's image, not her own.


    So which is it? On the one hand you send out a call for the "black" versions of Wolverine, Spider-Man, Batman, etc. Then you cite actual examples of such characters but dismiss them as mere diversity-fillers? Where is the consistency in this?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense that what you're really wishing for are ethnically diverse characters who are as interesting/popular as Wolverine and Spider-Man, not just black versions of these characters. I agree with you on that, but your logic gets somewhat muddled. You sabotage your own argument by using such contradictory language.

    Once you get past the basics (origin, costume, powers), a character's originality and/or interestingness is pretty much left up to the author. Let's face it, there just aren't that many new ideas to try. Most characters are going to be somewhat derivative at this point. There are only so many costumes, powers, and origins that haven't been done already. Most of the time the only thing that's going to ramp up the originality level is the author. Swamp Thing and Marvelman were not original OR interesting until Alan Moore got a hold of them.

    I would take issue with your assertion that characters like John Stewart and John Henry Irons are just black versions of other characters. Yes, they share superficial similarities with previously existing heroes, but these men are completely different characters in their own right. John Stewart is many people's favorite Green Lantern, not just a black version of Hal Jordan. John Henry is not the black Superman or the black Iron Man. He's a black man who wears powered armor, and was inspired by Superman, but is his own man. The similarities are minor.

    If you're suggesting that the comic industry needs a whole host of new, ethnically diverse, completely original characters who will appeal to the public and sell lots of comics...well that would be nice, wouldn't it? But it won't happen, not all at once, at any rate. The reading public only has so much patience for characters that are invented from whole cloth. Most people are comfortable with characters and powers that they already recognize. If we're lucky, the higher-ups will occasionally come out with a new version of an older character- but this time with a "twist." This time the new character is black, or Hispanic, or a lesbian woman.

    It's not great progress, but it is a start. You make inroads where you can, and hope that a competent writer is handed the reins.

    If you don't like the character of Steel, that's certainly your prerogative. We can't all like the same characters. I happen to think that he's very interesting and honorable. You don't. It's OK to disagree on things that are this subjective. I just don't think it's fair to dismiss a character that you don't like as a "quota hire."

    Have a good day.

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  22. Anonymous7:45 AM

    This has been a very strange journey. The entire running debate has evolved into something straight out of left field all because you made a mistake in the review of JSA #12. Instead of just saying "my bad" and moving on, you pushed this discussion into a realm where it didn't need to go. I have read your blog for a long time and try to give everyone who is out there writing about the wonderful funnybooks the benefit of the doubt but this whole thing just seems rather juvenile on your part. Making an error is not a big thing it happens to everyone all the time and mixing up characters in a book, especially JSA which seems to have an endless roster featured from month to month, is perfectly understandable. But, trying to cover a simple error with a rambling treatise on race and bland characters and "logic jump" posts about something that wasn't even directed at you is just silly and disappointing.

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  23. Holy crap. Now I'll know never, ever to point out that you got anyone's name wrong.

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  24. Agreed on all counts, Val.

    (Though I actually liked Irons in his early appearances. Seems to me like no one's really known what to do with him for years.)

    And you're totally right that the only way to sneak diversity into the mainstream is by slapping an established character's logo on it.

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  25. I'm disappointed that, with this supposed response, there has been actually little response to any of the comments that were actually directed at Ms. D'Orazio.

    A whole blog where she responds to comments made ABOUT A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BLOGGER in an argument that was borne out of her inability to acknowledge that she made a mistake (calling Jefferson Pierce (a character she was involved with in editing at some point, I'm sure) John Irons).

    Sure, this whole thing is dripping with ironic humor, but not much substantive response to any position that's been questioned.

    Ms. D'Orazio, if you're serious about giving an honest discussion a chance (rather than closing down comments and claiming the other party wants to claim an immature victory), you're going to have to do more than skim the arguments of others.

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