Okay, I know everyone's talking about the (sort of) cameo a certain Robin-suit made in the latest issue of Batman.
But is this indeed a victory for Stephanie Brown/Spoiler/Girl-Wonder supporters? Or, because it's really a dream sequence, is it just much ado over nothing?
Here's why I think it is all damn significant:
1. Grant Morrison wrote it (as opposed to expendable young writer #5).
2. Regardless of the fact that it was a dream sequence, it shows what Batman really felt, if only too stubborn to admit it.
3. Regardless of the fact that it was a dream sequence, it shows what DC probably recognized as a mistake about at least a year ago, if only too stubborn to admit it.
4. Batman gets menaced by a power-drill at the end of the issue, just like what happened to Stephanie Brown -- indicating that the trophy-case/Stephanie thing wasn't just a cheap gimmick, but part of the texture of the story
5. It's damn hard to get DC to admit they were wrong on anything, so I have to consider this a major victory on the part of Girl-Wonder.org.
That said, a possible return of Spoiler in Robin kind of waters down the emotional impact a bit.
But folks, with Batman #673 we might just be seeing the beginning of the end of DC-dickery.
Stay tuned.
Post-Script: I wrote this before reading Dirk Deppey's scorching commentary on the topic this morning...
Bringing back kids by going back to a stricter Comics Authority? *scratches head*
ReplyDeleteIs it just me or does Deppey hate all fans? I hope it's not just me. Because my support for Girl Wonder stemmed from how I understand Batman as a character. Hello, he puts roses at the site of his parents' murder every anniversary. He went bonkers after Jason Todd's death. Etc. It just didn't make any sense for Batman NOT to brood over what happened to Stephanie.
So I guess just analyzing it that far, despite having not bought a Batman comic since late 90s, makes me one of the crazy Nazi-fans Deppey apparently wants to irradiate. So I guess he wouldn't be impressed when I say he has a valid point with there needs to be a way to gain new readers because I'm an evil fan who thinks there are enough writers, artists, and paper to produce comics for all age levels and the medium is not just kid-only.
I'm hoping they do bring Stephanie back though. I'm trying to lose weight and have set for a goal to sew up one of the Project Rooftop Spoiler redesigns for the office Halloween party. It would be nice to say "a character from Batman comics" to my coworkers than "a dead character from Batman comics."
I don't have a dog in the Girl Wonder fight, but the last paragraph of the linked rant had some good ideas in it.
ReplyDeleteSuperheroes with decades of continuity and scary covers of Venom holding a human skull didn't get me into comics; ALF and Uncle $crooge did. (Carl Barks directly responsible for me buying X-Cutioner's song? That's ugly.) A major, foundational shift in what superhero comics are seems necessary to me.
Perhaps not a popular opinion here, but I mostly agree with Deppey. The notion of having a campaign focused on getting a trophy case in the Batcave has always struck me as idiotic. For those who were fans of Spoiler (as I was, at elast when Dixon wrote her) - the character still died in a stupid storyline. All that's changed is that now someone remembers that she died in a stupid storyline.
ReplyDeleteDeppey hits it on the head IMO - putting a memorial in the Batcave for Stephanie Brown doesn't make comics more female-friendly. At best it appeases a small but loud group of existing fans. Lisa Fortuner sees that as validation that DC actually listened to those fans and modified its books in accordance with their wishes. And I suppose that's something, except that what they wished for was IMO really dumb.
"It would be nice to say "a character from Batman comics" to my coworkers than "a dead character from Batman comics."
ReplyDeleteThough realistically, given that the people at your office party know little of the current Batman comics beyond "they have Joker in them or whatever", do you actually need to mention that she's dead anyway? Would they care either way?
"It would be nice to say "a character from Batman comics" to my coworkers than "a dead character from Batman comics."
ReplyDeleteThough realistically, given that the people at your office party know little of the current Batman comics beyond "they have Joker in them or whatever", do you actually need to mention that she's dead anyway? Would they care either way?
Given that they didn't even know who Medusa was *rolls eyes*, they won't know, they won't care. But I always have an overwhelming need to explain and educate, so I'm really trying to limit to a sentence for their benefit. And I'm already pegged as the weird one. I'd rather not be pegged as the creepy weird one. :)
we might just be seeing the beginning of the end of DC-dickery?
ReplyDeleteNow that is real dream sequence
Wow...Deppey perfectly said *everything* I keep thinking. I won't rehash his thoughts, but I couldn't agree with him more.
ReplyDeleteKlcthebookworm,
I don't think Deppey hates fans. I think he hates the mainstream superhero comic companies and everything about them. I don't think that's born out of any contempt to fans. I think Deppey's main point, and we may very well disagree here, is that the Stephanie Brown protest was misguided at best and trying to disguise the protest with essentially a "think of the children" argument was disingenuous. In other words, it seemed to me Deppey's problem was with the borderline assumptions made by the protesters and also, thought the victory was moot. Outside of Batman readers, who cares if there's a Stephanie Brown trophy or not? How does a Stephanie Brown trophy help non-Batman female comic readers?
Matches,
"Lisa Fortuner sees that as validation that DC actually listened to those fans and modified its books in accordance with their wishes. And I suppose that's something, except that what they wished for was IMO really dumb."
I don't know if it was really dumb so much as it was really pointless. Like, I can see where it's a moral victory for female Batman readers, even if it's a rather trivial one. Outside of female Batman readers, who cares? How does this affect say a single Marvel book? How does this affect females who read manga? How does this affect females reading anything other than Batman? Does it even affect all females reading Batman, or just the on-line female readers vocal about wanting a trophy case?
So, yeah, I guess technically, it's a victory, but only a victory for a trivial cause that only seemed to affect a very tiny group of people, female Batman readers. For those of us who aren't even Batman readers, I think we're still trying to figure out what the Hell a Spoiler/ Stephanie Brown even is and why we should even care.
Guys, you don't suppose that maybe, just maybe the refusal of honoring Spoiler in the Batcave just MIGHT have something to do with an upcoming story? You don't think, even momentarily, that this Spoiler story (much like everything DC has published over the past 5 years) is leading to something slightly bigger?
ReplyDeleteNah, lets just raise a new flag and fight a new fight. DC obviously just hates women, its clear as day.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteAre you accusing people of pulling a Spider-Bitch? lol (This is more fun than I can possibly describe! lol)
Truthfully, Dan, I admire your optimism. I'm saying this honestly and with no hint of irony, I hope you and everyone else who regularly reads DC product is rewarded with a story that pays everything off.
Dan, I'm trying my best to give this all a positive spin and take everyone past this onto brighter days. Please do not get so defensive.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, you owe the blog an "Occasional Superheroine Reader Profile."
My thoughts are it should have happen a long time ago. It happening now is much too late. DC has already shown its hands in many ways when it comes to female readers and female characters and have a long long way to go to change certain readers mindsets when it comes to their published materials.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't want to be pegged as the creepy weird one, don't go to your office Halloween party in the costume of a dead obscure Batman character from a comic you haven't read since the late '90s.
ReplyDeleteBitter much, David?
ReplyDeleteI like the design on Project Rooftop. I like to sew. I like the Batman section of the DC universe. I don't want to wear a red wig all day to go as Batgirl.
I like what I have read of the character before the controversy. I also think it's a horrible storyline because of what editorial decisions forced Leslie Thompkins to do against a doctor's oath (something I don't buy the character doing, but I only know the Animated Series version). I was trying to be optimistic that the horrid storyline would be retconned.
And while I may not have bought any comics, I am a fan of the Animated series and the movies up until He that shall not be named screwed them up. Christopher Nolan is doing a great job and I plan on enjoying "The Dark Knight." DC has gotten my money. :p
But don't sweat it much, okay my dear? I probably won't lose enough weight to look good in spandex by October regardless.
By the way, you owe the blog an "Occasional Superheroine Reader Profile."
ReplyDeleteCount on it, Val :) Just been so busy. BOUGHT A HOUSE! Yay! Wife wants to move in 2 weeks.....uh....
And can someone please start a blog about how my job takes up too much of my time? That is a cause I can get behind.
"You don't think, even momentarily, that this Spoiler story (much like everything DC has published over the past 5 years) is leading to something slightly bigger?"
ReplyDeleteA slightly loaded question, Mr Bizzle. DC had different people in play five years ago, and Dan DiDio himself has written that editorial plans change. DC might now be planning to tie plot threads dangling for several years into a larger storyline, but that doesn't prove that this was ever the original intention, as anyone can tie disparate and unrelated events in fiction into a larger narrative context after the fact. The writers and producers of the X-Files famously made everything up as they went along, only tying contradictory plot elements together in the final episode after 9 years of on-the-fly plotting.
Plus, y'know, it also doesn't retroactively change that DC gave several - contradictory - reasons why Stephanie didn't get a trophy case over the last few years. That says to me that incorporating Spoiler into their 'bigger story' is about backpeddling and butt-covering, plain and simple. Even then, it doesn't change what a great many critics found offensive at the time - the sexualisation of the torture and murder of a child as presented in the original War Games storyline.
Something Deppey seems to have missed: the Stephanie-case thing isn't just about a case for Stephanie; it's a stand-in for much more general observations about the way female characters are treated. A test case, as it were.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I don't see the Girl Wonder campaigners saying "All comics should be for kids". They say things like "This" (e.g. the Heroes for Hentai cover) "is being marketed as suitable for young teens and it's blatantly not". People aren't mostly objecting to porno comics, but to porno appearing in what are supposed to be adventure comics. I suspect Deppey is being disingenuous, or he hasn't bothered to read the people he's criticising.
He's got a point about that not being enough, and they'd need to do a lot more to get new readers, but not actively driving away the old ones is a start, right?
I think Kenny's right, but Deppey's opinion of the mainstream comic companies does influence his view of its fanbase. It's hard to not read his rant and conclude: (a) he really doesn't like the superhero genre (b/c that's what the 'inherently juvenile' stuff is really about, isn't it?), and (b) he has a poor opinion of the people who read it (and blog incessantly about it).
ReplyDeleteMy real problem is this: If you don't like the product that comes out of either company, and view it as part of some kind of capitalist conspiracy, why give advice to either company? It just rings false when someone who has a clear conflict of interest regarding the success and failure of specific publishers deigns to give advice that would just happen to marginalize rival companies and render them completely irrelevant.
But that aside, I really don't understand why someone would write something about a subject/genre that they dislike so vehemently. I don't like romance novels. It's cool that they exist, but I'll never read one. Somehow, I've made it through life without having made a single post or having a single conversation about it.
For a while I was on the "Spoiler...kind of sucked at being a superhero. & I...kind of thought making her Robin was a bad idea, a publicity stunt..." but somewhere along the way it was pointed out to me, as it has been pointed out to others that you know what? JASON TODD SUCKED. I mean, the whole point of "1-800-kill-robin" was that Jason sucked. So...What Is The Difference Between Jason & Stephanie? The question, once begged, had only one real answer: gender. I DO think it is a gender subject, I DO think Stephanie deserves a case.
ReplyDeleteOkay. That said. YES it is "important." It counts, because every little "Steph gets a case" whether in Legion comics or here, counts. It is a tip of the hat by the writers. It is an acknowledgment of the fans. It is a crack in the ceiling. One time, Robin was a girl. You know? It isn't a "Win" but it is "winning."
I haven't ready the Deppey thing yet though. Maybe I'll rant at that, too.
I find myself in total agreement with Dirk, and as far as I can tell, his opinion of super-hero comics or fans is completely unimportant. Beyond all the specifics of girl wonder, Dirk continues to hit on the one main thing--super-hero comics appeal to an aging fanbase, and that aging fanbase isn't being replenished by youth. Which means that it doesn't matter if a group is appealed to specifically when they complain-whether it's spoiler or a dead hal jordan. None of that deals with the simple 25-35 age demographic that isn't being replaced. Girl Wonder can win battles for the next couple of years, but what future do these books have when they're already struggling under the weight of a continuity?
ReplyDeleteFeelings don't count. Money does. And no matter how many websites and essays complain and howl, super-hero comics aren't where the money is, and they never will be again. DC is never going to care that much about Spoiler, not when Christian Bale and Christopher Nolan are refurnishing their office floor.
What I was struck with was Deppey's unwillingness to engage with the wider arguement; apparantly, just because a niche group wants something, its irrelevant; and a symbolic test case becomes the sole goal of a movement.
ReplyDeleteAs for the making-cape-comics-for-kids thing: Yes, there do need to be all ages comics. How're those Marvel Adventures things working out?
Addendum: I refer to fans of "mainstream" super-hero comics who are female as a niche group because Mr. Deppey does, not because I believe they should be marginalised. Apologies, and apologies for the double post.
ReplyDeleteWhy take a concern of a small-number of people who buy comics seriously when they've proven that they'll buy the books they're upset with regardless? There's such a massive amount of rampant sexism and misogynistic content in every other form of media that's far more accessible to the public than a super-hero comic will ever be--these things reach what, less than 5 percent of the reading public?
ReplyDeleteDirk, in my opinion, justly points out that if super-hero comics can't get the wimpy kid or manga money, that it won't matter whether every comic features Spoiler or whether it's straight up misogynistic porno.
And on that "how's Marvel Adventures working out," well, gee, do young readers even know those comics exist? Do their parents comprehend the labyrinthine distinction between a Spider-Man Reign/Ultimate/Amazing/Clone Saga/Ditko/Marvel Adventures book? Why should a parent have to work so hard when any other merchandised character (like Naruto, or Blue's Clues, etc) actually uniformly behaves the same way across any incarnation?
owesome,
ReplyDeleteFemale mainstream superhero readers are a niche. It's not maginalizing anyone, it's just calling a spade a spade. And why should Deppey or anyone pretend there's a larger argument here when there isn't; the majority of female comic readers aren't reading Batman (neither are the majority of male come readers either, but I digress) and those same female comic readers don't give a flying fig about the trophy of some dead Robin.
The larger argument Deppey is presenting is the vocal female comic readers are shooting themselves in the foot by pitching a fit *every* time they see something that sexualizes women. Whether it's the Mary Jane statue or Playboy, almost no one cares except for a handful of people on-line. So, saying this Stephanie Brown thing is a victory begs the question of who it's a victory for? There's almost no women reading mainstream superhero comics and most female comic readers simply don't care. It's more empty posturing.
I got an issue with Kenny saying it doesn't matter because "there are no female readers." Branding matters, and Websnark says it much better than I could.
ReplyDeleteI'm female. I love many Marvel and DC characters. I can't afford a comic book habit (I tried in the late 90s, now I have to buy my own food). I'll save up for a graphic novel or a trade collection that impresses me, because I'm actually getting my money's worth. A monthly floppy isn't worth it.
So how do I get my fix? I read webcomics--which isn't part of this discussion--and I watch what DC and Marvel licenses in television and movies.
What led me to X-Men comics? The X-Men cartoons. I own the DVDs of all four seasons of the Batman Animated series. I enjoyed the Spider-Man cartoon series in the 90s. Sheesh, in America how do you get more kid audience than with cartoons?
You can't tell me with the money that the superhero movies have been pulling in that it has all come from boys and men. There is a woman audience for the genre, but I think like me they turn to the movies and television where the cost is easier on the pocketbook and the misogynistic content is toned down.
The idea that the whole Spoiler thing might need to be re-examined more closely to see where the feminist issues begin and where the desires of a group of hardcore fans that happen to be fangirls ends?
ReplyDeleteI'm open to that. There could be some interesting things learned from a level-headed discussion of that.
But a return to two-dimensional biff-bam silliness and emptiness, because that's what "making it for the kids again" essentially comes back to... as argued by someone who is so much of an adult fan that they're writing a blog about comics, paradoxically...
I can't get on that train.
I'm in my late twenties and, yeah, the example of Kitty Pride and Petey Tinbritches knocking boots?
It was unexploitive, character driven and fairly good writing and that's exactly why it was appropriate.
Good writing is appropriate, I'll concede no point that restricts the creativity of the writer.
Saliciousness may invite bad writing but focusing the art form toward a kind of innocent child that never existed in the first place DEMANDS bad writing.
Yes, tens of thousands of aging geeks want comics to grow up with them... but the counter argument is one aging geek who misses when he was a kiddie geek.
I accept no argument that demands worse writing.
I doubt, very much, that Deppey wants to irradiate anyone.
ReplyDeleteAs for the rest, I don't much care one way or the other. Too many females telling guys who professed to want change to shut their mouths because they were guys.
klc,
ReplyDeleteYou have a problem with me saying "there are no female readers?" Well, good, because I never once said that. Please find me somewhere I did, and I'll happily apologize.
To say I said "there are no female readers" introduces a straw man argument that I won't fight against. I never said that, so I won't defend it. What I *did* say is most female comic book readers aren't reading Batman or any other mainstream superhero comics. Even Val has posted demographic information claiming female mainstream superhero readers are only 10% of the audience. Mark Millar said in a Marvel conference call back when "Trouble" came out that he's seen internal data saying there are only 330,000 people buying mainstream comics. So, 10% of 330,000 equals 33,000. That's it. There are, at best, 33,000 women reading mainstream superhero comics. Why should any company making millions from licensing care what only 33,000 people think?
Further, I said most female comic readers are reading manga and other alternatives, and while I can't recall any sources off the top of my head at 7:30 in the morning, I think we both know I'm right. In fact, my comments could be interpreted to mean there's a bigger female comic reading audience than there is a male comic reading audience, just not in mainstream superhero comics.
klc, please don't accuse me of things I never said. I say enough stupid things on my own without anyone making up anything.
There are, at best, 33,000 women reading mainstream superhero comics. Why should any company making millions from licensing care what only 33,000 people think?
ReplyDeleteAlright, that's what you meant so I apologize for saying you said "none."
But I still stand that this number pales in comparison to how many women are participating in the genre through licensing and that the editors in charge of the comics are losing income by not examining what's the difference between mediums.
klc,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your apology. I'm sorry if my feathers were a bit too ruffled. *hug*
"But I still stand that this number pales in comparison to how many women are participating in the genre through licensing and that the editors in charge of the comics are losing income by not examining what's the difference between mediums."
I think, and this is just my opinion, that's the point Deppey was making. Licensing is the real bread winner for the Big Two. (I think an inherent point there is millions of women are putting money into the licensing.) The editors and everyone else in charge of publishing are missing all of that money because they're not producing comics that all of those women, kids, well, basically everyone outside of the hardcore 330,000 mainstream comic buyers would like to purchase.
Like, basically, giving a trophy case to Stephanie Brown isn't making Batman comics any more attractive to female readers outside of whatever percentage of the 330,000 we assume are reading. It's a trivial victory at best because it only placates the female percentage of the 330,000...a percentage that was going to continue buying Batman regardless of whether there was a trophy case or not. That's the real problem here, this was only a victory for people who were already buying and not going anywhere.
I think, and I get the impression from reading Deppey's blog every day he thinks this too, bigger issues have to be addressed than Spoiler or whatever to shift the dollar from licensing to actual comic books. Speaking for only me, I hate mainstream superhero comics, but I wish they had a bigger readership so more alternatives could prosper as a side effect.
There are, at best, 33,000 women reading mainstream superhero comics. Why should any company making millions from licensing care what only 33,000 people think?
ReplyDeleteBecause even if women are only 10% of their readership, I'm willing to bet that a) most of the women reading are a good deal older than the majority of the males reading, and therefore b) are spending more money -- or have the potential to spend more money --- when they do buy mainstream comics because they have their own money.
I have been reading mainstream comics for 35 years. The first comic I ever bought? World's Finest. I didn't start reading manga or independents until I was in my mid-30s. I now buy a total of 2 mainstream titles because I can barely stand the treatment of women in mainstream comics.
The Stephanie Brown memorial? Is, indeed, a drop in the bucket of sexism in the comic industry. But there isn't much water in that enormous bucket, so it makes a pretty loud noise hitting the bottom.
Jude,
ReplyDeleteYou're taking offense, but I don't think you quite got what I was saying. Let me try again. DC makes millions off of licensing and has millions of customers they license to; they lose money on publishing and have, at best 330,000 customers. (That's assuming every mainstream reader reads DC.) Why would a company making millions from one set of customers care what a small percentage of the money losing department's customers think?
To use your analogy, the bucket, publishing, isn't enormous. It's tiny, and worse yet, it has a huge hole in the bottom. Any drop in the bucket isn't going to make any effect until the hole is fixed.
Should they care? Speaking as a comic book reader, I wish they would. Do they care? I doubt it. They essentially tossed the female readership a bone and some people are acting like it's a great feast, or that a feast is soon to follow. It's not, and at the end of the day, DC doesn't care what that 10% thinks because none of the 330,000 are going anywhere, women included.
Does that make any more sense?
That Robin suit looks more like the Carrie Kelly suit from Frank Miller's Dark Knight than it does Stephaine Brown's suit.
ReplyDeleteIt would be sort of an amazingly offensive joke, that's still sort of funny, if that Robin outfit really was Carrie's.
ReplyDeleteTO all you naysayers, it boils down to this:
ReplyDeleteDC listened to us on this one thing. Maybe, just maybe, they'll start to listen to us on the other things, and soon comics will be a female-friendly place again.
(BTW, this would not require a return to the Comics Code, Dirk. I like my sex, swearing, and violence as much as the next girl. I just want female characters to get equal respect regardless of their gender.)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if what I'm going to say will mean anything to most people here, as I am not a superhero comic fan. Maybe Deppey is right that creating a memorial to Stephanie isn't going to make me or other women (or men) read these comics. But for what it's worth, when I learned about this, it mattered to me. I think things like this really do matter as a symbol of the inequality inherent in the patriarchy. I'm not invested in the growth of readership. But I don't think the growth of readership is what this should be about. That's what Deppey missed. For what it's worth, I think the Stephanie Brown Requiem movement is pretty damn cool.
ReplyDelete