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Monday, May 14, 2007

Mary Jane Comiquette Statue Fight Now On Level Of The American Civil Rights Movement.

A comment left on the previous post:

Okay, I need to get this off my chest.

Occasional Superheroine, I do believe you are wrong-very wrong- on the "overly excessive argument"

I am reminded me of a line from Martin Luthor King's Letter from A Birmingham jail, where he comments about how he was told to "wait".

Yes, if only we can get Sideshow Collectible & Marvel Entertainment to pull the MJ statue, we may win freedom for our people. We too may be able to vote, to share the same water fountains with fanboys.

It starts with one woman: Mary Jane Watson. If we can liberate her from the twin evils of cheesecakery and blissful housewivery, it will be the crucial blow against the patriarchy that we need to turn the tide.

But first -- Stephanie must get her trophy case.

Oh, news just in -- Stephanie & Mary Jane NOT REAL PEOPLE.

Here's some links regarding the real oppression of women -- real women, not comic book characters:

Afghan girls struggling to get education

Women enslaved in global sex trade


Domestic violence

Now go compare your struggle as a comic book fan angry that Stephanie doesn't have a trophy case to the s**t these women went through.

I mean, the MJ and Stephanie and Power Girl discussions, they're a good start. It's like school. Graduate from school, and apply all that passion and sense of social justice towards something in our reality. You can still discuss Power Girl. But break it up a little bit. Maybe devote 50% of your bandwith to Stephanie getting her trophy case, and 50% to Afghan women setting themselves on fire because their lives are so damn miserable. Or maybe 75% Stephanie, 25% Russian sex slaves. Or maybe two pages of posts on "Fangirls Attack" on MJ, one page on domestic violence in Canada. Maybe I'll stop being such a self-absorbed snarky blogger myself. You don't think I read about the real s**t that goes on in this world and feel like a jackass sometimes for the stupid fangirl s**t I write about?

31 comments:

  1. Yes the Mary Jane comiquette controversy is frivolous compared to the plight of women and girls all over the world. If you're going to compare it to self-immolating Afghani women though, hell, sexual harassment in the workplace seems trivial by comparison, and no way I'm putting up with that for a second.

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  2. What the hell is it with people who can't understand it's not either/or?

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  3. my personal experiences with sexual harassment *are* trivial compared to what millions of other women go through throughout the world. nobody shot me or threw me in jail because I dared write "Goodbye To Comics."

    It's not an "either/or" situation...it just looks a little ridiculous. And invoking the name of Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks because you think a piece of high-end limited-edition comic book art is too "cheesecake" is excessive and offensive.

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  4. Here via WFA.
    I like your blog usually. But today, I had to create a google account, to say this :

    1)
    No, neither Watson, nor Brown are real people. If you have a link to someone who says otherwise, share it. I´ll help pointing and laughing. BUT - the poeple who READ ABOUT THEM are real. And if the distributors of what is part of their lives and dear to their heart directly, or in this case indirectly through a secondary party, decide to SLAP a part of their audience nonchalantly IN THE FACE, than this is as good a reason for uproar than anything else, no matter how small this part of the audience might be.

    2)
    A very optimistic and philantropic part of myself is clinging like hell to the thought, that MAYBE, one of the people who either make this kind of things or buy them, STOPS retorting the same useless bu[[$(!t responses, and STARTS listening to what all this complaints are about (instead of assuming that it´s just the whining of a fat, flatchested feminazi) and finally realizes what it means for him- / herself and others to support such a depicture of a female characer. And you know what ? If this whole thing manages to do this with just ONE person, then it was WORTH IT. And than it´s also worth the NEXT uproar.

    3)
    The thought of dedicating a page of When Fangirls Attack for feministic themes outside of comics is nice, really. It has just one tiny, little FLAW :
    WFA is dedicated to COMICRELATED, FEMINISTIC FLAVOURED TOPICS. That´s why I´m reading it. I want to read about comic books. When I want to read about other topics, I go elsewhere.
    And, by the way, assuming that people who complain about this statue are either not interested or not already doing something in regards to oppression of women worldwide, is a lousy generalisation, AT BEST.

    4)
    That a girl in Turkey gets stoned by her own family for marrying outside of her religious group, that east - european women fall victim to prostitution - rings, or that little girls ( and boys ) in southeast - asian countries are sold to sex - tourists, DOES NOT silence me, when something - be it in word, picture or act - sexist happens in front of my door, be it whatever "unimportant". Because for me and others, IT IS IMPORTANT.

    LAST)
    Considering that the official webpage of the creators of this figure is DELETING NEGATIV COMMENTS OFF THEIR PAGE, is one reason more to create an uproar.
    Because it´s rather hard to IGNORE.

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  5. I've read your blog since you did "Goodbye to Comics", with only brief hiatuses for travel. It is often thought provoking, and you are, indeed, an excellent writer.

    Perhaps, though, instead of telling people you don't agree with to write about domestic violence statistics in Canada (I have) or the plight of women in foreign countries (I have - specifically China), perhaps you could point out where you have put your talents to these worthy causes?

    There is no either/or here. To criticise someone for using language and comparisons you disagree with, I can understand. To then chastise people for not doing enough about "real" issues.... What, we only exist when you look at us?

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  6. Anonymous10:47 AM

    I'm sorry if I offended you. I often am prone to ramble, and exaggerate. This is due to a skewed worldview I have.

    Still, I do believe that the entire idea of "over-reacting" is the classic female histeria argument.

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  7. I agree.
    Anyone whose offended by this is an idiot.
    Every single male superhero being published is shown in at least one "bbefcake" shot every single issue. Yet no one whines about opression or misandry. Grow the hell up and stop bitching about irrelevant crap.
    Its exactly this type of behavior that makes "feminist" such a dirty word.
    Men like cheesecake. Women like beefcake.
    Deal with it.
    Most comic readers are men, ergo an intelligent company will provide them wit the types of merchandise they want to buy.
    Deal with it.
    Men like seeing women in cheesecake poses. We like womens bodies, we like to look at womens bodies, we like to fantasize about having sex with those women whose bodies we admire (even if those women dont actually exist), this has always been true and will always be true.
    Deal with it.
    Or maybe you can't?
    Afterall they do call it "bitching" for a reason now dont they?

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  8. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  9. Interesting how you're taking the words of one commenter to be speaking for all comic book geek-feminists who object to that statue. Ironically, a male one, even!

    I also think even mentioning MLK Jr. anywhere in the same paragraph as the Sideshow comiquette is pretty darn silly, but that doesn't mean I don't think the statue is offensive, and - for the upteenth time - saying the statue is offensive does not mean that I am ignoring or lessening the plight of women in Afghanistan.

    For someone setting herself up as a figure working in shades of grey, you seem to be working with a number of false dichotomies. I can't help but notice that you haven't responded to any of my counterarguments I made a few posts ago. Speaking of which, news about the MJ controversy has now hit the "news"blog BoingBoing, which is run entirely by a couple of nerdy (but not especially comic-y) guys who pick out things they find interesting and generally laudable. So there's your "we must look like a bunch of crazy feminazis" argument in shreds.

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  10. Ooh, you're right--thank you for waking me up to real-world issues! Otherwise, I might have spent my life believing that Stephanie Brown's memorial was the most important thing in the world!

    Of course, I had better quit my job, too, since helping to make good comics is MUCH less important than a million things I could be doing instead. And that money I spend on comics? Nonprofit donations!

    Hmm. Let's see--what else is there? Well, I could move out of my apartment--my car wouldn't be too bad to live in, I suppose, and I'm sure there are better uses for that $725 a month. After all, there are women being stoned to death.

    Activism is clearly a one-shot deal: better cancel my ACLU membership and stop working for reproductive rights, too, since those aren't technically life-or-death issues, and my energy should obviously be spent on something really important. Because, y'know, it's impossible to work for social change in more than one area at a time, and there are no overlaps between stuff like the portrayal of women in media and their lives in the real world, which is soooooo much more important!

    You've totally opened my eyes! Thank you for your deeply insightful post!

    Oh, wait, you know what? Fuck your sanctimonious, patronizing "reality check." The geeks I know through groups like Girl-Wonder are way more involved in social and political activism--in and out of comics--than you, you self-righteous hypocrite. I've just finished writing an eight-part series on the relationship between rape in comics and misconceptions about real-life sexual violence. Take off your blinders and stop profiling.

    "If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
    -Emma Goldman and me

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  11. how is the statue in question any more "offensive than either of this?
    http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/preview2.php?image=cons/toyfair2007/part1/sideshow_DSCF0062.jpg

    Isnt this an aboviously sexist depiction of a man?
    Notice the open shirt exposing an area of men many women find attractive, not too mention the overly defined and unrealisticly proprtioned musculature.
    Is this nothing more than an attempt to turn a male character into nothing more than an object of sexual desire?
    Not to mention he has been portrayed in an obviously sexual pose, notice the "Gun" in his hands and obvious phallic reference as well as (most likely) an attempt to speak to the male predilicition for self gratification?
    Is this not depciting him as nothing more than a muscle bound engine of masculine violence?
    Is that not a sterotype of tradtional gender roles?

    Or are all of you just hypocrites who are full of it?

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  12. Surely you have something better to do with your time, RMM?

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  13. Rational Mad Man. Try and see this in simple, generalizing terms.

    Men in comics are often very muscular, hyper-defined even.

    This is a way of establishing them as powerful, active, and physically in charge; all typically male attributes, but that's not a bad thing necessarily. It is a definition of men in men's terms.

    Women in comics are often very lean and curvy; pseudo-babelicious, and represented in positions that enhance their forms.

    This is a way of establishing them as femininely attractive through (stereotypical) signs of beauty and attractiveness. This is a definition of women in men's terms.

    Go ahead and enjoy that, but shut the fuck up about inexistent symmetries, and understand that women represented in a way conceived to please men won't necessarily please women who'd like to feel they're seen as a part of the readership rather than as some object of attraction. And not all men, either.

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  14. RMM - first it is extremely insulting to everyone that you think YOUR opinions trump everyone else's here. If something offends someone, it's completely within their rights to be offended and to state that as such. You are also given the right to disagree - but to disagree by saying that others don't have the right to any opinion different than yours is extremely short-sighted.

    Being shown as powerful is NOT an insult, it is a compliment. Being shown as a sex object, as subservient to a man, as being weak, as having breasts being the most important feature - that's is NOT a compliment, it is an insult. If male superheroes were shown as fat drunks who lived in basements of their mothers and drank beer and watched TV all day - then I could see where men would be offended.

    There isn't anything wrong with men enjoying good looking women, or vice versa. But when either decides to objectify the other, and/or make him/her subservient then that's an entirely different matter. It's a shame you can't seem to see that.

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  15. Wait; does complaining about people complaining about overt sexism get you a golden "I saved Afghani women" sticker?

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  16. Daniel,
    thank you for posting such a precdictable and quite frankly laughable excuse for a justification.

    You claim that while men are portrayed in a sterotypical way its ok becasue its "masculine" yet I suspect such an ridiculous argument, were it reversed would hold no water with you. That is to say if my argumnet were that the MJ statue is a compliment becasue it portrays women as "feminine" you would howl with outrage.

    Furthermore your postulate that both sexes are shown in hyperidealised froms yet only the portrayl of women is flawed becasue its based on defining them in mens terms is laughable. The simple fact is, whether male or femal almost all characters are idealised. Men are shown as hyper virile creatures of physical dominance and overly developed musculatures, while women are shown as hyper sensual creatures of sexual dominance and overly devloped ascetic characteristics.
    The treatment is exactly the same. yet you only find one offensive.
    Thats hypocracy.

    You claim women dont want to be viewed as objects of attratcion? Since when? ALl of us, male and female want to be seen as objects of attraction. Theres a reason Fashion designers make billions. from both men and women.

    Women in comics are not being defined in "mens terms", if they were thier portrayl would be closer to the one seen in pornography. Women in comics are portrayed as physically idealised versions of the people we like to think we are or could be. Thier personalities run the gamut and while some are, as MJ is in this statue, portrayed as a picture of domestic bliss, others are shown as cut throat business women, strong leaders, powerhouses, etc.

    And finally as to women and readership. Like it or not women are a small percentage of comic readers, just as men are a small percentage of watchers of shows like "sex in the city" and "americas net top model", are you as incensed by the sexist depictions of men in said shows and the like as you are by this statue? or the ever present depiction of fathers in western media as bumbling buffoons who can not exist without a womans wise council? If not why not, are you merely a sexist of a different flavor?
    The truth is a products market will determine the specifics of that product. Men are portrayed in literature marketed to women as either lieing conninving cheating predators; stong,stoic, supporters, or bumbling yet well intentioned buffons, women are portrayed in literature marketed to men as either wanton sexual dynamos, domestic partners, or lying cheating man eaters, in both cases the portrayl falls far short of the reality, even in those few who resemble the caricartures, and can be seenas unfair to the sex being portrayed. Both are driven by the opposite sexes conceptions and misconceptions of who the other sex is, and both are largely inaccurate.

    Fact is both sexes expect from the other what the other can not and will not provide, both have issues with the other, and both feel like they are being portrayed unfailry by the other, neither is right.

    Grow up and fucking deal with it.



    Lisa, people have every right to be offfended, but if they get offended over something stupid, Im going to say so. This is something absolutley and completly moronic to get offended over.

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  17. Rachel,
    You tell me I'm sanctimonious and have no right to criticize a person for comparing Stephanie's "cause" to real-world civil rights struggle. But you just finished a multi-part essay basically *instructing* comic book writers how to write rape. I mean, there is a lot of good stuff in there, but you take an approach where *you know best* and these writers, most of whom are male, are idiots at worst, well-meaning bumblers at best. "Rape should not be a motivation for a superheroine to fight crime" -- who says? Are you kidding, it's a PERFECT motivation! It's a PRIMAL motivation. Now writers have to stop using that as a motivation because YOU said so? You don't think one moment of polite, non-preachy outreach to a Joe Quesada or Dan Didio is going to make more difference than you going : "I'm an expert here. You are a well-intentioned dolt. Let me tell you what to do." That brand of feminism is fine and it instructs and informs *within* its community. I'm interested in approaches that will work *outside* of our community. I'm tired of theories, of talking to brick walls.

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  18. Furthermore your postulate that both sexes are shown in hyperidealised froms yet only the portrayl of women is flawed becasue its based on defining them in mens terms is laughable.

    How so? Are you denying that the majority of women in comics are presented in a way that's intended to appeal to the male gaze? Many (not all) comic creators see comics as "boys" market, and think that they have to use sex to pander to a primarily male audience. I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with having sexy women in comics anymore than I think it's necessarily bad to have sexy men in comics. I think that the problem is that women are frequently reduced to sex objects, while men are characters. Look at the differences in the costumes that men and women in comics wear. The men almost always wear costumes that cover the majority of their body and serve as a uniform or as protection. Women in comics wear costumes that make them look like they're getting ready for a day at the beach or an exotic dance. Why does Superman wear a full body costume, but Supergirl wears little more than underwear and shirt with a plunging neckline? Men in comics are presented in all manner of shapes and forms. Women generally aren't.


    Men are shown as hyper virile creatures of physical dominance and overly developed musculatures, while women are shown as hyper sensual creatures of sexual dominance and overly devloped ascetic characteristics.

    Bull. Women in comics are rarely shown as sexually dominant. They're frequently shown as submissive.

    The treatment is exactly the same.
    Hardly.

    You claim women dont want to be viewed as objects of attratcion? Since when?
    I suspect that the problem is that women in comics are often treated as though being an object of desire is more important than almost anything else. Male heroes are recognized for what they do and who they are. Female heroes are recognized for how "hot" they are, or how big their breasts are.

    Women in comics are not being defined in "mens terms", if they were thier portrayl would be closer to the one seen in pornography.

    *snicker*
    How much closer to pornography do you want them portrayed, for gods sakes? There are mainstream artists out there that use porn images as the basis for their women. Women characters are routinely dressed in outfits that look like they came out of a Fredericks of Hollywood flier. Comics frequently feature fan-service shots of the women character's breasts and ass. And you don't think that there's an element of porn here?

    Women in comics are portrayed as physically idealised versions of the people we like to think we are or could be.

    No. They're presented as the physically idealized versions of the objects that fan-boys think they'd like to fuck.

    Thier personalities run the gamut and while some are, as MJ is in this statue, portrayed as a picture of domestic bliss, others are shown as cut throat business women, strong leaders, powerhouses, etc.

    1. MJ is not portrayed as the "picture of domestic bliss" in the comics. She's supposed to be a model and an actress. She supposedly exudes class and poise. This makes her look trashy.
    2. Women characters are frequently portrayed as T&A first and foremost, and anything else second.

    Like it or not women are a small percentage of comic readers,
    I can't imagine why.

    Grow up and fucking deal with it.
    By which you really mean "Shut the fuck up about it, because I don't like the things you're saying." Yeah, that's grown up.

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  19. How so? Are you denying that the majority of women in comics are presented in a way that's intended to appeal to the male gaze?

    ===================================
    Everyone in comics pretty much is shown as attractive. Name one ugly superhero male or female in either the mainstream marvel or DCU.


    ===================================
    Many (not all) comic creators see comics as "boys" market, and think that they have to use sex to pander to a primarily male audience. I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with having sexy women in comics anymore than I think it's necessarily bad to have sexy men in comics. I think that the problem is that women are frequently reduced to sex objects, while men are characters.
    ===================================

    What?!?!?!?
    Are you on drugs?
    She hulk, Moonstone, MJ, Aunt May, Ms marvel, Storm, Rogue, Aren't characters?
    huh I think thier writers might disagree.



    ===================================
    Look at the differences in the costumes that men and women in comics wear. The men almost always wear costumes that cover the majority of their body and serve as a uniform or as protection. Women in comics wear costumes that make them look like they're getting ready for a day at the beach or an exotic dance. Why does Superman wear a full body costume, but Supergirl wears little more than underwear and shirt with a plunging neckline?
    ===================================

    Perhaps because oth men and women find near naked women more attractive than near naked men?
    Perhaps becasue while women do in fact wear sexy clothing, men are less likely to care? Perhaps becasue even the most professional women in the most regulated of industries still dress far more provactively than thier male counterparts?
    How often have you seen a business women in a pants suit with a plunging necline shirt? men?

    Tell me do teen boys, or teen girls tend to dress more provactively, and expose more skin?
    Are women more likely to wear a bare midriff shirt, a halter or tube top, or short shorts or are men?

    The fact is women and men dress different, why wouldn't thier costumes be different?



    [quote]
    Men in comics are presented in all manner of shapes and forms. Women generally aren't.
    [/quote]
    Really?
    Huh I am sure Big barda, Volcana, cloud 9 and many others would disagree. If anything men have a much smaller range of body type. name one superher who isnt ripped? Name one whose less than 5'10?
    Name one who is fat.


    ===================================
    Bull. Women in comics are rarely shown as sexually dominant. They're frequently shown as submissive.
    ===================================

    Really?
    Huh I seem to remember MJ being the sexual agressor in the comis. Not to mention many many others. How often are female comic characters shown being infatuated with males as oppsoed to vice versa?
    If anything women in comics tend to be far more agressive sexually and have far higher rates of ebing sexually agressive than women in real life.

    ===================================
    I suspect that the problem is that women in comics are often treated as though being an object of desire is more important than almost anything else. Male heroes are recognized for what they do and who they are. Female heroes are recognized for how "hot" they are, or how big their breasts are.

    ===================================

    So? That they are recognised for one thing doesnt preclude they aren't also recognised for another.
    Are you saying a female character cant be known as both hot and what theyve done?
    Really?

    ===================================
    *snicker*
    How much closer to pornography do you want them portrayed, for gods sakes? There are mainstream artists out there that use porn images as the basis for their women. -----------------------------------------------------------------

    And? There are creators who use hollywood actors as their model for women. so what?
    There are artists who have used noted body builders or actors as thier template for male characters.
    Again so what.
    I am not an artist, but I would imagine a naked woman would be a good model to use to get a woman proportions and body type right. I really dont get the signicance of what your saying here. If all female characters were based on attractive lawyers instead of attractive porn models how would that be better?

    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Women characters are routinely dressed in outfits that look like they came out of a Fredericks of Hollywood flier.

    -----------------------------------------------

    And? Men are frequently in copsutmes straight out of a bondage movie. So what?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Comics frequently feature fan-service shots of the women character's breasts and ass. And you don't think that there's an element of porn here?

    -------------------------------------------
    Considering thier just as likely to show superherso with ripped costume exposing virile manly chest no not really.
    How many times deos spidermans ass get prominantly displayed when hes webswining?
    A hell of a lot more than you see MJs.

    Are you trying to say spiderman is gay porn?

    =====================================

    No. They're presented as the physically idealized versions of the objects that fan-boys think they'd like to fuck.

    -------------------------------------
    Some, but then Batman has the highest (or once did) following among gay men in all of comics. Does that mean that batman is being xploited for gay mens sexual fantasies?

    Again. Name one ugly superhero. Not scarred, or deformed. Ugly.
    Name one.

    ====================================

    1. MJ is not portrayed as the "picture of domestic bliss" in the comics. She's supposed to be a model and an actress. She supposedly exudes class and poise. This makes her look trashy.
    -------------------------------------

    hmm you can read right?
    I said she was portrayed as the picture of domestic bliss in this statue. You know as in a piece of o3-d artwork cast in some material as opposed to printed on paper.
    And actually yes she is.
    Peter and MJ mariage is often prtrayed as domestic bliss.
    How often do you see them having a nice dinner, or wacthing a movie cuddling, or engaging in other domestic activities?
    Yes shes a model and an actress. And? Models dont do laundry? Actresses dont help around the house?

    You think this makes her look trashy. I don't.
    If anything it takes a hell of a lot of class to wear pearls around the house.
    =======================================
    2. Women characters are frequently portrayed as T&A first and foremost, and anything else second.

    -----------------------------------

    Right, they are never ever protrayed as CEO's, Cops, Teachers, computer experts, martial arts instructors, soldiers etc. Never ever.


    ====================================
    By which you really mean "Shut the fuck up about it, because I don't like the things you're saying." Yeah, that's grown up.


    --------------------------------------

    No what i mean is grow the fuck up.

    Try it you might even like it.

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  20. "Name one whose less than 5'10?"

    Wolverine :) Sorry, couldn't resist, he is supposed to be a lot shorter than everyone else.

    Serously though I do think that you make some valid points RMM (and others here), but I most agree with Video Store Girl, there are bigger issues out there that deserve the fuller extent of our energy and passion. That is not to say that not being annoyed when something like this comes up is wrong, its more, yes be annoyed, yes complain but keep it in context to the bigger picture of life.

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  21. RMM, you need to calm down. Your rants, while entertaining in the same way watching Britney shave her head is entertaining, are getting to be a bit much. I'll try to keep this brief. And honestly? I wouldn't have put even this much effort into this comment, but the BMI study was just linked to within the last week. Oh, and you're quite rude to others.

    1. You ask for an unattractive hero of either gender in "mainstream marvel or DCU", but don't have a problem using "Big barda, Volcana, cloud 9" as your examples of outlier female body types. I think your point about restricting to the mainline universes is valid, so you might want to do the same.

    2. "Perhaps because oth men and women find near naked women more attractive than near naked men?" Seems unlikely. While your bias (and mine as well) is clearly for the naked female form, that is a bias which is not at all universal. Hence, David

    3. You misunderstood Roy's point. He wasn't saying that porn actresses were used to get body proportions "right" (as right as possible with massive silicone implants), he was, I believe, talking about those artists who use reference photos. In those cases, they copy poses and (for the really sad artists) even facial expressions. When you've got a porn actress, bent over and ready to suck off her costar as your basis image...

    4. And the easiest to dispute: "If anything men have a much smaller range of body type. name one superher who isnt ripped? Name one whose less than 5'10? Name one who is fat." And here's the study.
    "[C]omparative BMI indicates that 28% of Marvel women are underweight, compared to 0% of Marvel men. 72% of Marvel women are in the normal BMI range, and 0% are in the overweight or obese ranges. 56% of Marvel men are in the normal BMI range, 40% in the overweight range, and 4% in the obese range"

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  22. You ask for an unattractive hero of either gender in "mainstream marvel or DCU", but don't have a problem using "Big barda, Volcana, cloud 9" as your examples of outlier female body types. I think your point about restricting to the mainline universes is valid, so you might want to do the same.

    ===================================
    Huh?
    All three characters I named are from thier respective mainstrem universes.
    Cloud 9 is in The inititiove, Volcana was the wife of Molecule Man, and Big Barda is as Mianstream DCU as it gets. Hell she was only in the JLA like 3-4 times.
    WOnder woman is 6'+ stargirl is 5'10"
    Powergirl has huge breasts, Red Cyclone has small ones. Ma Hunkel is an older overweight white woman, hawkgirl is a skinny latina.

    Seems like quite a bit of variety and thats just the cast of a single title.

    -----------------------------------
    Perhaps because oth men and women find near naked women more attractive than near naked men?" Seems unlikely. While your bias (and mine as well) is clearly for the naked female form, that is a bias which is not at all universal. Hence, David

    ===================================
    I never said it was universal. it is however far more prevalent even among women. Ask yourself this, how many "gentelmans clubs" does the average city support compared to "ladies clubs"? Who is the primary consumer of porn men or women? The fact is men are as a whole far more enticed and interested in female nudity than women are in male nudity.
    The vast majority of men will purchase entertainment solely becasue an attractive female is naked, women are far less likely too.


    -----------------------------------

    You misunderstood Roy's point. He wasn't saying that porn actresses were used to get body proportions "right" (as right as possible with massive silicone implants), he was, I believe, talking about those artists who use reference photos. In those cases, they copy poses and (for the really sad artists) even facial expressions. When you've got a porn actress, bent over and ready to suck off her costar as your basis image...



    ===================================

    Not every scene in a porno is sex. What specific shots were used as a basis, and what was the context the image apepars in in the comic has a lot to do with it. If I use a pic of a woman screaming in a freddy movie to draw an image of a woman screaming does that automatically mean Im making a horror comic?

    -----------------------------------

    And the easiest to dispute: "If anything men have a much smaller range of body type. name one superher who isnt ripped? Name one whose less than 5'10? Name one who is fat." And here's the study.
    "[C]omparative BMI indicates that 28% of Marvel women are underweight, compared to 0% of Marvel men. 72% of Marvel women are in the normal BMI range, and 0% are in the overweight or obese ranges. 56% of Marvel men are in the normal BMI range, 40% in the overweight range, and 4% in the obese range"


    ===================================

    OK where do I begin.
    1)I mistrust the abillities of any researcher who soends thier time studying the BMI of fictional characters.
    2) His random sample was pitifully small which means theres a high probablity his findings are inavlid to begin with.
    3) the height and weight stats at marvel are rarely consistant with the way the same characters are drawn which means his data is source data is also suspect.
    4) finally theres the fact that both men and women in the marvel universe and the DCU as I have pointed out previously are shown to posses idealised body types regardless of his or her lifestyle.
    For men this involves a higher body mass, and more musculature, for women this involves more curves, and promiant sexuality.
    This is not a reflection of sexism so much as a reflection of the idealised versions ourselves based on what each sex finds most impressive.

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  23. I really don't know why I'm bothering. But I'm going to try one more time, using much smaller words, to tell you what everyone has already told you: men like women curvy; women like women confident.

    Men like to see pictures of titties. Women don't like to see pictures of titties. Men draw comics for men. Comics therefore have big titties.

    Hyper-curvy, misproportioned women are only an "idealized version" in little boys' wet dreams.

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  24. VSG-

    You're misreading me pretty outrageously, both in my own column and in your comments.

    Yeah, you're right--I did make suggestions about how to portray rape. But I also spent a lot of time making it clear that those were SUGGESTIONS, from my PERSPECTIVE, not the be-all, end-all of instructions.

    But that's not the point, nor is the point that you responded to my arguments by attacking something only tangentially related. The point is that you have completely ignored the fact that there IS outside activism in the comics community--a lot of it--and that the fact that many of us write blogs or contribute to sites that are specifically related to comics makes us no less active in or vocal about other feminist issues. Your frustration with the MLK analogy is understandable, but I don't think it justifies such a sweeping and ultimately offensive generalization.

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  25. men like women curvy; women like women confident.

    -----------------------------------
    1) false dichotomy. Curvy/Confidant is not an either or proposition. or are you saying only fat and flat chested women can be confident?


    ===================================

    Men like to see pictures of titties. Women don't like to see pictures of titties
    -----------------------------------

    Some do. Many don't. They do like pictures of mens butts in tights, such as those shown every other page in Spiderman. They do like images of mens hairy chests, as is shown in everyone of hawkmans appearences. They do like men with broadshoulders as Superman batman etc are always portrayed as.


    ===================================
    Hyper-curvy, misproportioned women are only an "idealized version" in little boys' wet dreams.

    ----------------------------------

    Thats why breat augmentation is one of the most perfromed elective surgeries in america I guess.
    because women dont want to be hyper-curvy?
    Or are those women just self loathing mysoginists?

    If anything, women are bigger critics of their own bodies than men will ever be. As i said before Comics doent show us as we are, but as wed like to be.
    Most men wouldnt even be noticed if standing next to bruce wayne, most women cant compare to Selina Kyle. Same diff.

    But hey keep thinking every woman wants to be fat or flatchested. Im sure thed be pleased to know that unloes they are you dont consider them confidant or strong.

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  26. I promised myself I wouldn't reply, but I need to clarify one point (of the many) that you missed.

    "[M]en like women curvy; women like women confident" with no regard for their appearance. It's not a false dichotomy. I failed to provide the subordinate clause feeling it would be obvious.

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  27. With no regard for thier appearence?
    -----------------------------------

    First - Have you met any women?
    Each others appearence in a huge factor in wehther or not they will become friends. If another woman is too attractive it wont happen, too unattractive and it wont.
    Second, If a character is both curvy and confidant, according to your theory, both men and women will lik her.
    Men becasue shes curvy, and women becasue shes confident yes?

    I mean that is a pretty accurate depiction of your narrow minded little view yes?

    So ask yourself this then. If a wirter wants to make sure he appeals to the greatest numbe of men and women, he would make them both yes?
    Becasue afterall according to your prejudicial view, men wont like her if shes not curvy right?

    And since acxcoridng to your equally narrow minded and erroneous perspective on women, they like confident women "regardless of appearence"
    They wont care whether she is curvy or not.

    So the best bet to pleaseboth demographics in that scenario would be a curvy confidant woman yes?

    Its amazing but even when i use your twisted and bigoted rationale, logic still wont allow me to reach the same conclusion.


    but hey Im sure your not the type to let facts or reality intrude upon your ideological purity now are ya?

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  28. Rachel,

    My point is that your article has really nice and informative *suggestions*, but it is not designed or written or presented in a manner that is going to reach the majority of the people who are in power/are writing these books. I know that sounds *harsh*. And if the answer is, "well I don't care what those in power think," then get together with other likeminded women and put out your own comics and God bless you.

    I'm sure there's fangirls who are active in social causes -- but I'm sure you agree there is a sizeable percentage that knows more about the minutia of Stephanie Whatsername's biography than big issues, who think that these pissant little things like a statue here or a cover there are worth more than a couple of snarky posts, that it is the whole damn Women's Liberation Movement all over again.

    Guess what? In the major media, women who read comics are now equated with "hysteria over sexy statue." Thanks to this whole debacle, that's how the major news media sees us. As a joke, as a bunch of shrieking reactionary sob-sisters. And when an issue comes along that is *really* important, that's how we are going to be written off by that same media.

    And don't use the *F* word towards me in a response to my post and then complain about feeling *insulted.*

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  29. VSG -

    Thanks for your response. I also want to apologize for being such a snarky bitch in my first comment--I was really angry, but that was no reason for me to be gratuitously nasty.

    You wrote,
    I'm sure there's fangirls who are active in social causes -- but I'm sure you agree there is a sizeable percentage that knows more about the minutia of Stephanie Whatsername's biography than big issues, who think that these pissant little things like a statue here or a cover there are worth more than a couple of snarky posts, that it is the whole damn Women's Liberation Movement all over again.

    I agree, but I also think that's going to be true in any special interest / fandom. I would guess that there are no shortage of people who know more about whoever's pitching for the Mets, or J-lo's love life, than the war in Iraq: we are a country obsessed with media and tragically ignorant of and unresponsive to the world around us. It seems unfair in that light to target fangirls rather than, say, sports fans, particularly since--again, at least in my experience--the feminst comics fan community tends to be more socially and politically aware than the average box o' rocks.

    Guess what? In the major media, women who read comics are now equated with "hysteria over sexy statue." Thanks to this whole debacle, that's how the major news media sees us. As a joke, as a bunch of shrieking reactionary sob-sisters. And when an issue comes along that is *really* important, that's how we are going to be written off by that same media.

    I disagree. Sure, a few columnists like Dirk Deppey are presenting us as a howling hord of hysterics (although not nearly so alliteratively), but there are also articles like this piece in the Toronto Star, which use the furor over the statue as a gateway into more general discussions of the portrayal women in comics. In the Star article, the statue's detractors come off as extremely sensible and articulate, and the portrayal of women in comics--as illustrated as the statue--is presented as a legitimate concern. I'm not saying all of the media responses have been that positive, but not all of them have been knee-jerk negative and patronizing, either.

    In hopes of making this a more all-around-useful conversation, what do you think would be an effective way for feminist fan locii like Girl-Wonder to incorporate real-world feminist issues without diluting their primary focus on women in comics? It seems pretty simple for individual bloggers, but it becomes more complicated when it calls a shift in the structure of an entire site, and I'd be interested in hearing your suggestions.

    Peace,
    Rachel

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  30. are also articles like this piece in the Toronto Star, which use the furor over the statue as a gateway into more general discussions of the portrayal women in comics.

    Ummm, yeah IN CANADA!!!

    Canadians are smarter/more liberal, so of course they are going to make the logical discussion points, but IN AMERICA everything is different.

    Canada's headline:
    "statue causes much needed debate on women in comics and media"

    America's headline:
    "crazy harpy bitches irate over harmless statue"

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  31. I think they need a matching figure of spiderman washing the toilet. That might actually show something more about what a relationship is about:

    Work and doing the jobs no one really wants to do, but does anyway.

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