Thunderbolts: Breaking Point contrasts two women: the cold, amoral manipulator Moonstone, and rebel-with-a-heart-of-gold Songbird. They are former criminals who have both been conscripted by the government to work for the Thunderbolts. Because of her cunning, Moonstone has become team leader, while Songbird labors with the rest of the "rabble."
The U.S. government that employs Thunderbolts is a bit on the corrupt side -- Harry "Green Goblin" Osborne is one of their officials, for pete's sake. They are also licensing out the images of the team members to make action figures and other collectibles.
Because she is popular with "tweens," Songbird gets the inspirational and beautiful action figures made of her. On the other hand, Moonstone gets a variation on the cheesecake "Mary Jane" statue made so infamous earlier this year.
As Osborne tells Moonstone:
"...you're popular with...males 18 to 49--a very desirable demographic. They have more disposable income, so we're thinking of a higher-end collectible for you."
Now, there has been some controversy as of late regarding the inclusion of this sequence. Lisa from Sequentially Speaking writes,
"Personally, I get the feeling that the gang over at Marvel is not taking the concerns of feminist fans seriously. There were news stories in the mass media about this, and while not all did, many expressed concern at the story the statue was telling. Rather than letting it lie, Marvel brings it up again, as if to say, "ha ha ha feminists, we're making fun of your concerns again!" Maybe they don't think we actually read Marvel comics? Or maybe they don't want us to read them anymore and are showing us the door with this panel?"
I have to respectfully disagree with her assessment.
If anything, scripter Christos Gage has actually written something rather subversive. By making the analogy between the Moonstone & MJ statues, he is indirectly also making a connection between the corrupt (or merely shameless) government organization that runs Thunderbolts and Marvel Comics. I don't see it as an angry "down with the Man" connection, but it is a connection.
Had Marvel Comics been so concerned about swaying the public's opinion via subtle story details in their books, I would think the first order of the day would be to veto the whole issue outright on the basis that it might be criticizing their licensing practices.
Instead, I see this as Gage (and, by extension, Marvel itself) poking fun at themselves. This is not Captain America holding up a Mary Jane statue and telling feminists to "lighten up." This is Harry Osborne -- certified fruitbat -- holding up a Moonstone statue and saying "hey, this piece of s**t statue will certainly bring in some revenue with the fanboys." He's not to be taken seriously. He's a fruitbat. The whole organization is not to be taken seriously -- they're corrupt. Moonstone is not to be taken seriously -- she's a cold-blooded killer who makes Sharon Stone in "Basic Instinct" look like Pippi Longstocking.
Then who should be taken seriously in all this?
Songbird.
Songbird has consistently shown herself to be the most capable and moral person in the entire Thunderbolts. She's brave, a great strategist, and a tough fighter. She's a true superheroine. As such, she apparently appeals to teenage girls in the Marvel Universe because she is a great role model.
It is the Moonstone statue, the organization who made the Moonstone statue, and the inspiration of said Moonstone statue who are all shown to be negative in this story. As an alternative to all that, we are given Songbird -- regarding whose personal life and psyche the whole issue is about.
That said, the controversy over this sequence has brought up a connected issue, reflected upon by commenter James Meeley on Lisa's blog:
"They see this as a way of sparking controversy and publicity for the Marvel brand name. They know there are tons of well-meaning fools, who will see this image and jump onto their blogs and pimp the hell out of it. Sure, they'll be calling it "disgusting" and other things like that, but the exposure (no pun intended) will net them lots of interest. It will most likely make this book sell better, once word gets out, since whenever someone calls something out, people flock to it to see what the big deal is."
Are comic book companies purposely including these things knowing that feminists will get angry and blog about it -- thereby providing free publicity?
I think that line of thinking gives too much (or too little) credit to the "think-tanks" for the big comic publishers. A bunch of curious readers buying some comic just to see the boobies on page three will not save or even seriously impact numbers on a book that is crap. A little sales bump on issue whatever is not going to turn the tide on a title -- good writing and art will (and perhaps a guest-spot by Wolverine). Even if this was a strategy that is used -- which I most certainly think was not the case with the Thunderbolts issue -- it is a short-sighted and ultimately impotent one.
Do the big companies completely disregard the (oft-times totally justified) concerns of feminists regarding their comic books? I have first-hand information & second-hand information that this is not the case. It is on Marvel & DC's radar. The question then becomes, "how much on the radar," and "what are they doing about it?" Those are good questions. But they are not in a bubble, and to paint a picture of villains sitting behind their desks, twirling their mustaches, and laughing about how a half-page scene in an obscure one-shot will really "stick" it to the feminists is stretching things a bit.
And the editor of Thunderbolts: Breaking Point was a woman, by the way.
My original reaction was more along your lines, Valerie. I read it as a mockery of the objectification in the MJ statue - a knowing wink to those who find this kind of thing distasteful and offensive. But I'm usually a generous reader, so who knows?
ReplyDeleteI think the telling line is, "It'll be very tasteful." I read this exchange as a simple bit of snarkery at the corporate machine that feels the need to produce memorabilia like this, as well as the section of the market that such things appeal to.
ReplyDeleteI also took it as a blatant bit of snark at marketing's expense and was a bit surprised to see people arguing differently. Still, it's a big surprise to see something funny and mocking from Marvel, so I suppose that's why the distrust.
ReplyDeleteGood rundown on the situation here. Gage definitely wrote a great piece of self-mockery here.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, that's Norman Osborne (the elder Green Goblin).
I'm on this team. The team that says: "Yes, some comic book creators & vendors are...well, gross. I think they are pretty repulsive, myself. So lets throw in a couple of semi-good hearted jabs."
ReplyDeleteAs with Mordicai, I think this was just a throwaway gag. There's far too much being read into it, IMO.
ReplyDelete' The question then becomes, "how much on the radar," and "what are they doing about it?" '
ReplyDeleteThe question for me is "how knowledgable are they about feminist issues?" I'm sure I'm not alone in having spoken to people that still think racism is about how many Black friends one has. I'm not ready/eager/willing to read Joe Q's personal take on feminism yet.
I think it's pretty clear that Gage is taking a little of the piss out of Marvel. He seems like a decent guy.
ReplyDeleteI hardly think is meant as a snub at feminists. This is more like a "we know we screwed up with that statue, we can make fun of ourselves over it," type of gag.
My first reaction was, that in an earlier era of Marvel someone would have been fired for something like this - controversy or no, they're insulting a licensor here. But as it is they'll probably squeak by - I doubt anyone at Marvel thought much about how much response a throwaway gag in a spin-off from a midlist title would be received.
ReplyDeleteI think the more important fact is that pretty much every attempt by Marvel to sell more blatantly-pandering product in the context of their books - the various Shanna miniseries, for example, Heroes for Hire (which, whether you like it or not ,was initially sold as a T&A book) - has tanked, and tanked pretty hard.
I have to admit, I don't really know any of the characters involved, but even without that knowledge my reaction's similar to yours.
ReplyDeleteIt definitely reads, to me, like they're playfully lampooning themselves/Marvel. It made me chuckle.
Yeah, Harry is still dead, and wasn't really evil like his father, he just had problems.
ReplyDeleteAs to the scene, well, the whole Thunderbolts series has been subversive. It treats the primary protagonists as people we'd like to see get their asses kicked, the antagonists as heroic underdogs, and characters that some writers (I'm looking at you Paul Jenkins) conceived as uber-cool and compelling revamps, are dealt with as what they really are; pathetic, absurd, and desperately in need of repair. I love that after years of railing against the establishment taking superheroes too seriously, Ellis recognizes that the new establisment is taking them too seriously as well, but in a different way.
So it's not surprising that Gage is picking up where Ellis left off, and commenting on where the emperor's wardrobe is lacking. I like that Marvel's ship isn't so tightly run that individual writers can't get away with this stuff. Ellis, Slott, DeFalco, Nicieza, and David all have gotten their shots in recent issues (maybe it's not a coincidence that most of these books have come out of the Brevoort/Lazer office). So even if you don't care for the way the higher-ups are running the ship, you can still find your own corner of the Marvel Universe to ride it out in. And maybe eventually the people running the ship will take notice and correct course.
Great post. I loved this sequence - and it fits with the meta-comment thing Ellis has started in Thunderbolts. You never know, it might make someone think about how women feel about being valued best while bending over doing laundry...
ReplyDeleteTotally with you on this one, Val. Osborn is a *crazy bad man*. The "very tasteful" statue is clearly not at all, hence Songbird's snort of laughter.
ReplyDeleteI read her laughter both at Moonstone being demeaned in statue form (on account of she justifiably doesn't like her), and at the mere idea that this "higher end statue" was even close to tasteful.
(second try - Blogger lost my comment)
ReplyDeleteI first saw this page on Girls Read Comics, where Karen describes it as a swipe at the merchandisers. I was astonished to read here that somebody thinks it's a diss of the feminist complaints. Evidently it is possible to over-analyse something. Blimey.
Haven't read the issue, but I've seen the art you posted here and I agree with you. I also thought it was funny. Not super hilarious, but pretty clever.
ReplyDeleteIf anything, I think they screwed up by not going far enough. Presumably they were trying to make it look even less tasteful than the original statue (given the lack of outerware,) and yet the way it's drawn it actually looks a good deal better than the statue it's making fun of. O_O
ReplyDeleteSo the way I see it, this may by slightly missing the point of what ABOUT the statue was offensive, but it's acknowledging it WAS offensive, which is good.
Are comic book companies purposely including these things knowing that feminists will get angry and blog about it -- thereby providing free publicity?
ReplyDeleteI think that line of thinking gives too much (or too little) credit to the "think-tanks" for the big comic publishers. A bunch of curious readers buying some comic just to see the boobies on page three will not save or even seriously impact numbers on a book that is crap.
Thankyou. *applauds*
I don't think anyone has provided proof that all this "free publicity" has translated to an increase in comic book sales. Contrary to conventional wisdom, there is a such thing as bad publicity.
ReplyDeleteFor example, if consumers get E-Coli from a restaurant chain's hamburgers and it gets reported on the news, you generally don't see large numbers of diners saying, "Hey, let's try that food poisoning place!"
The Mary Jane statue may have benefited from the uproar, but those things are generally almost guaranteed sell-outs due to niche marketing and limited production runs. So I tend to doubt that just as I doubt the controversy kept anyone from buying it who was on the fence.
But comics are a different animal for any number of reasons. Cranks like a certain "rational" blogger (who appears to have had a nervous breakdown, by the way) migh be more likely to glom onto a title due to something like the Chuck Dixon homophobia-baiting comments or the illicit thrill of digging on Tigra's beatdown, but actual correlation between blogstorms and increased sales has yet to be established.
A bunch of curious readers buying some comic just to see the boobies on page three will not save or even seriously impact numbers on a book that is crap. A little sales bump on issue whatever is not going to turn the tide on a title -- good writing and art will (and perhaps a guest-spot by Wolverine). Even if this was a strategy that is used -- which I most certainly think was not the case with the Thunderbolts issue -- it is a short-sighted and ultimately impotent one.
ReplyDeleteI agree it is short-sighted. And if anything in what i said made it appear otherwise, I humbly wish to recitfy that right now.
That said, however, I think you are giving too much credit to the corporate masters, marketing directors and bean counter in this industry.
I'm sure that using feminist outrage for publicity reasons isn't the only reason this scene was done, nor is it the only factor in the choice to make such scene in the first place. But the fact remains that this is the same industry that nearly killed itself about 15 years ago, by foregoing on make good stories to encite a new generation of readers, instead opting for flash cover effects and a speculator market, than when it jumped shipped let them with a glut of unsellable (and badly done) product and nearly caused a collapse of the retail sector of the industry (I mean, how many comic shops were there in 1990 and how many by 1996?). And this is just one of many (and most glaring) examples of how often short-term thinking is used within the confines of this industry.
So, IF (although, as far as I'm concerned, it's WHEN) they use feminist outrage as a marketing tool, it is just another in a long line of short-term thinking moves that this industry has suffered under for quite some time.
You get no argument from me on how this is short-term thinking, that can cause more damge in the long term, for the sake of a very short term gain (provided it works, which it always doesn't). But then, that's all the corporate masters are concerned with. "Get those numbers up for THIS quarter. Worry and next quarter when it gets here. Right now, we need to make the projections for this quarter."
They don't care about integrity, creativity, morality, or any other "ity", outside of PROFITABILITY. And even then, they only worry about it in the short term. If they do long term damage, eh, so what? They hopefully be out of office when that bill comes due and it won't be their problem, will it?
Welcome to the world of business today!
I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. It's a view that's dependent on viewing Marvel as some monolithic "they" that carefully calculates and plants messages in each of its titles... rather than realizing that this is a second-tier book edited by an assistant editor, and written by a fill-in writer who chose to poke fun at something he personally saw as ridiculous.
ReplyDelete