I felt the need to sit down and talk to you about this one face-to-face.
Spoilers!
Thursday, November 15, 2007
Occasional Reviews: "Titans East Special"
I felt the need to sit down and talk to you about this one face-to-face.
Spoilers!
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....what did the Son of Vulcan ever do to anyone? Poor kid.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the review.
Admittedly, I'm a 35 year old comic book lover who grew up on Dick Grayson-era TITANS, with Perez blowing my socks off every month and Wolfman moving me like no writer had before. But, even with that admitted bias, this particular "special" looks anything but.
ReplyDeleteIt's astounding to think that DC can't take a group of teenage superheroes and find some sort of real world basis or metaphors for their youthful issues.
One need look no further than the BUFFY-verse to see how talented writers can work in social equivalents into genre work. A kid who is so ignored by his class he becomes invisible? A girl sleeping with her boyfriend only wake up to find out he has overnight turned into a heartless monster? The list goes on and on, and is infinitely more enjoyable.
Anyway...too bad they've screwed the pooch on a team that held such great memories for me and could still hold great potential today.
I will say that I've re-read a bunch of those Perez/Wolfman issues, and while the art is strangely antiseptic to me as an adult and the stories are painfully overwritten, I can still see how they resonated with me as a young, idealistic and undereducated youth growing up in Boston.
I sincerely doubt any kid today is connecting with the TITAN series in the same way.
Ted
P.S. As a completely unrelated sidenote, I forward you this from my friend in India who found this on the web. I have no other way of alerting you (and your readers) than posting on a comment page here (right?).
You may already have seen "Batman and Dostoyevsky," but in case you haven't, it's pretty awesome.
http://againwiththecomics.blogspot.com/2007/08/batman-by-dostoyevsky.html
As I said on scans_daily...
ReplyDeleteWorst comic of the year?
This is really bad writing.
"No duh!" and all, but I just don't understand why this new team exists.
There's a full page of the classic Titans line-up turning down this team-up without any real good reason.
Seriously, almost all of the older Titans are going "I'd love to but..."
But... what? As a writer, Winnick needs to provide an explanation: motivation, reasoning, a *tiny* bit of exposition.
What's weird is that Cyborg proposes an interesting and valid concept: the Titans East acting as the JSA, old and new working together. And Nightwing replies with "Well did anyone else say 'yes'?"
Wow, nice rebuttal Nightwing. Way to totally prove Cyborg wrong. Cause its not like the JSA have like a 0% death toll, and its not like you just swooped in to help the Teen Titans at the end of Adam Beechen and Geoff John's story-arc.
Also does Nightwing's counter imply that he will go along with something, if the crowd is already going along with it?
There's no background given on any of the new characters, so I don't know why I should care when they die.
Not to mention (outside of Power Boy) their death scenes are rushed, and lack any creative uniqeness.
They're just all shot with lasers and fall down. If you're going to make a comic just to gratuitously kill off a bunch of D-listers, at least have some fun with it. Superboy-Prime knows how to accomplish this.
I hate HATE *^&%%HATE*^&*&!!!!!! the art!
The most unnecessary, grossest displays of teenage cleavage - and not just cleavage, more like lifeless Maxim-everything but the nipple-superficial pornography for a comic about the Teen Titans... you know those cute, little anime looking tweens from Cartoon Network, and the soon to be Muppet Baby-Tiny Titans.
What was the point of this comic that couldn't be accomplished by Cyborg just being kidnapped?
Didio, et al.: "The classic Titans realize that they need to come together and take responsibility after the tragic death of inexperienced heroes."
Me: "you mean from SB-Prime's massacre in 'Infinite Crisis'?"
Dido: "No."
Me: "Oh then you must mean the second massacre at the hands of Black Adam in "world War 3'"
Dido: "No not that one either, I'm talking about the one page laser assault from the 'Titans East' one-shot special."
Me: "The what?"
Dido: "We introduced a couple more characters as Titans-in-training - without any backstory, and then we'll kill them all off a few pages later. You must be captivated as a reader and a purchaser of comic books."
Me: "Wait why don't you just use those other two arbitrary Titans massacres to provide motivation, discussion, and conflict?"
Dido: "Because."
Me: "Oh well that makes sense, excellent point."
So instead of real explanations for the original Titans backing out, we get elipses.
Instead of some sort of intro for the new Titans, we get Power Boy and Hawk talking about their night of rough, kinky, superhero sex last night.
How old are they again? Are they both over 18, or is this the cheapest of cheap smut?
This book *REEKS* of editorial mugging: Not one moment in this book was given any depth. It merely pushed plot forward, without any bit of characterization, motivation, or conflict.
Its sex talk, tit shot, fight scene, and death scene.
You know Winnick always felt kind of underwhelming to me, but this proves how much of hack he is.
He is a glorified fanfic writer: this books consists of nothing but gratuitous detail about minor characters' fetishes, no attempt at maintaining any past sense of characterization, lazy and rushed rationalization, arbitrary violence and death.
And just like other bad fanfic, it looks and reads like it was done by a 15 year old.
The thing that's most ridiculous about all of this, is the fact that the only scenes that had any zeal to them were Power Boy/Hawk's "supergirl fetish" and PB's impalement.
But because of corporate liabilities, they can't even get away with actually having Power Boy's New God-money shot splash in-between Hawk's triple-D-sized teenage tits. And they can't have PB's boiling guts shoved down his mouth, while the 14 year-old Son of Vulcan is beheaded as his eyeballs explode in a hurricane of pus and tears. If you want to go the route of juvenile exploitation - then GO ALL THE WAY.
DC had the mentality of superficial frat boy on this comic, and somehow they still totally chickened out.
This book's intent is about as deep as a flasher's: quick, random, and only intended to be sensationsal - but what we actually got was a shriveled, limp dick of a comic book.
ummm, i actually kind of enjoyed seeing all the lame people dying. powerboy had to go after the whole supergirl fiasco. plus he's a douche.
ReplyDeletei too believe the #1 was a rouse, but i will wait to see if there is a Titans East #2.
Maybe we will see Apache Chief Jr., Vibe, Aqualad, and the Wonder Twins in the next installment.
Well, I think anything I had to say about this book has been said, in the review and the comments. I really, really wish Winnick had just stuck with "Barry Ween". That book was a lot of fun. I'm sure it didn't pay as well as, say, dry-humping the DC Universe, but still.
ReplyDeleteOh, and I definitely read this in the store. If I'd paid good money for this bit of jackassery, I'd have felt even dirtier than the morning after a romp with Power Boy.
Now, I'm not following all the Countdown tie-ins, but isn't Starfire wrapped up in the whole "I have no powers, so I'm babysitting Animal Man's kids" storyline? As far as I know, she seems to have the best excuse for not joining the team.
Power Boy = OMGWTFBBQ!?!?!
ReplyDeleteHey Val, thanks for the review! Personally was planning on avoiding it, but probably going to check it out after hearing you comments. Sounds like it might be kinda fun! Will let you know the verdict...
ReplyDeleteI would've much rather prefered to see the Perez/Wolfman Titans taken down by whatever and have the series built around this new team coming together to stop the menace. It would've been something different instead of yet another sad attempt to recapture 20 year-old lightning in a bottle.
ReplyDeleteNice review, though.
"....what did the Son of Vulcan ever do to anyone? Poor kid."
ReplyDeleteThis royally sucks.
Comments have said it all, just wanted to leave my RIP for Vulcan.
damn. And the art is even worse than the story.
.wil.
Ok, finally got my hands on this one off of Val's recommendation. And the verdict is....Not bad! Stupid, goofy but pretty fun! The interplay between Power Boy and Hawk, Dove and Lil Barda was exactly the kind of fun comic book writing that brought me into the medium. Worth the $2.99, in spite of Winick.
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts:
ReplyDelete1) Did the flashback have anything to do with the story in the present day, or was it there purely to pad out the page count? Seemed like the latter to me, but my eyes glazed over within seconds of opening the cover.
2) When did Cyborg become the new Ted Kord, the guy that all the other heroes dump on and avoid because they're all too busy hanging out with the cool kids?
3) Hawk and Dove don't put on costumes; their costumes magically appear when there's danger and they say their names, then magically vanish as soon as the danger ends. Unless they somehow sensed that they were in a Judd Winick comic and were in imminent danger of being murdered by editorial fiat, they should have been in civilian outfits in most of the scenes (the gratuitous shower scene in particular.) It's a nitpick, yes, but it's an example of how Winick doesn't really care about any of these characters except as an excuse to pad the bodycount. Five minutes' research would have gotten him an explanation of their powers, but that was five minutes more than he wanted to waste on this quickie piece of junk.
4) At this point, does anyone really care that DC's just heaped up another pile of bodies for us to get "shocked" at? Or is it just another case of "death, death, death, bacon, sausage and death"?
5) This isn't really a "story" per se, at all. This is the first five pages of a story, with a flashback to pad out the page count and a to-be-continued at the end to get you to shell out 8 bucks for a story instead of four. (Or possibly more--I don't hold high hopes that it'll be wrapped up in the first issue of the new series.)
About the nicest thing I can say about this is that it's still better than "World War Hulk" #5.
YYYAAAYYYY for the video review! That was fun! Can we please have more???
ReplyDeleteThe only comment I have regarding your review is what you said about the first page. Calling the girl a "chick" was awesome! About the gratuitous skin, though.... I think you're dead on in your intent, there's too much of it. I think the thong strap was a bit much. But as for the boobage, it's a comic written at men, you know? I don't know if a little cleavage here and there is the worst thing, you know?
Anyway, that's just my thought on that.
I wish you were still an editor. Comics *needs* someone like you who has a real enthusiasm for the characters and isn't afraid to tell it like it is.
Thanks for doing this. I briefly flirted with the idea of buying it, out of respect for Cyborg-The-Titans-Company-Man, but now i totally, totally don't need to. I was vaguely curious.
ReplyDeleteI hope they all stay dead. Especially Power Boy. Though I do have a fondness for Dove and that great McFarlane Mini-series from my youth that spawned her.
Well, here's my comments, Val in regards to your review:
ReplyDelete-Yeah, extended flashback. Indeed lame.
-Actually, he doesn't "decide to go with the losers after the others turn him down," he already had them. He wanted the other original members to act as mentors to them, ala Devin Grayson's Titans team.
-Yeah, Power Boy remains creepy. However, I think it's awesome that we have a character like Hawk who enjoys her sexuality.
-They're not "torturing" Power Boy, it all seemed to be pretty lighthearted all things considered. Heck, I expected Winick to have the characters point out to each other how lame they were, but instead everyone seemed to be having a fun time, which is not something you really see in comics a lot these days. Mind you, Churchill's art really ruins a lot of this (the man's art, as I've said elsewhere, is like some horrific mutant baby of Rob Liefeld and Frank Cho).
-Okay, again what's also been said before - WE DO NOT KNOW IF THEY'RE DEAD. Mind you, some of them we can GUESS they're dead and Power Boy looks pretty dead, but the rest all we've seen is a burst of light hit them in various spots. Until we see Titans #1, we won't be certain who's lived or died.
-I have never understood comic numbering for one-shots. why go to the bother of having stuff like "First issue" or hell, giving it a number at all if it's only meant to be a one-shot?
I actually thought the book was better than I thought it was going to be, just really pointless, though.
It was actually a Liefeld mini-series that spawned Dove. I loved the art as a kid and I think I still like Liefeld's art because of it - Liefeld's art just makes me happy.
ReplyDelete...I honestly didn't think there was enough in this comic to warrant 8.5 minutes of discussion. ^_^
ReplyDelete"But because of corporate liabilities, they can't even get away with actually having Power Boy's New God-money shot splash in-between Hawk's triple-D-sized teenage tits."
ReplyDeleteThis may be the greatest line to ever appear in a discussion about a comic book. Bravo.
I liked it in a so-bad-it's-good kind of way, but overall it was pretty 'meh'. Didn't get the point of the flashback either, though I noticed Robin's hairy legs. I was confused about the Bizarro appearance and the fact that the 80s Titans were fighting the Bizarro that first appeared a few years ago. Fits with the other inconsistencies in the book though, I suppose.
ReplyDeleteI was surprised they killed off the whole Titans East team, even if Dove looked like she only got wounded and Cyborg's been disassembled before. I was hoping they'd keep Lagoon Boy around because of how goofy the character looks. I'm hoping they reveal some of the characters survived in the follow-up. Seems like a real waste of good characters with a lot of potential to bump them off wholesale like that. It doesn't even work as a shock ending because most of the audience doesn't even know who half of them are.
But anyway, I'll probably check out the regular series because, if this issue was any indication, it'll be the comic equivalent of a really dumb but slickly packaged action movie.
Have a good day.
G Morrow
- this is just advice, not meant to insult you.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to do a review of a comic and give it a C+ you should come up with critical reasons that don't all revolve around body-hair. The only valid critique I found in the review is that the opening flashback scene is "very long". It is indeed long, but you don't go into why that's a bad thing. An opening flashback can be very long and that can be a good thing, or a very bad thing.
In other words, even though you say you are reviewing Titans East Special, you don't really offer your opinion on the book until the last few seconds of the video, where it seems you're forcing yourself to give an opinion based on obligation. It's almost as if someone has a gun to your head.
Also, I did roll my eyes at your disapproving view of the "boobage" and "thong." It seems that many comic fans, most of them female, but not all; view any show of skin as offensive and being an objectification of women. Of course when Robin or Power Boy show skin it's just goofy and awkward, right?
If you had read the Joker scene in more detail, you'd know the girl that he was holding the gun/bomb on is a pop-diva, and we know they don't dress modestly. Asking the question "Is it necessary" is a nasty and thoughtless trick when critiquing a book because it puts into the viewers mind that showing skin is somehow immoral and should only be done "when necessary" It also puts you in a faux-authority of whether or not it is necessary, but you decline to pronounce judgment, claiming you leave it up to the reader. This creates 2 issues, the first is that it's your job as a reviewer to give your opinion; the second being that you have already planted a seed in the viewers mind that you disapprove, regardless of saying "I dunno, I'm all for it."
I personally found Titans East Special to be mediocre, due to the "Friday The 13th" mentality it had, which isn't in itself bad, but is doesn't jibe with the super hero mindset. If you pay attention, the introduction of Hawk and Dove as "harlots" and the furthering of Power Boy's egomania and Supergirl-fetish; not to mention a reminder of what he did to Kara (which wasn't attempted rape, it was successful assault) shows the fact that although kids die, they "kinda had it coming" When Jason Vorhees cleaves through kids in his movies, he's not a villain in his own mind, he's punishing them for drinking, having sex and doing drugs, which is the behavior that led to both his own situation and his mothers death. The problem is that the killer (or killers) in Titans East is not revealed, does not seem to have any motivation at all and dispatches them all in an impersonal, non-tactile way that makes their deaths meaningless.
Not trying to bash you, but if you plan on doing reviews of comics in video format, they should talk more about the merits or problems of the book in relation to art, writing, plot and overall satisfaction and less about tit shots, body hair and simply pointing out things about the book (such as "long flashback is long") without telling the reader whether these are good things or bad things.
Also try and plan out what you're going to say, write an outline if you must and have it up near the camera for referencing. This way you have less "umm" "err" and "hold on a sec".
Final bit of advice, hold your camera and film the highlights of the book before hand, then film yourself talking. Edit the two together afterwards. I point this out because thrusting the book at the camera leads to us not being able to see what you're pointing out, or at the least see it very poorly. The only reason I knew what you were referencing half the time is because I had already read the book. But people who have read the book have already formed their own opinion, your review should be aimed at someone who hasn't read it.
What's a woman doing in the comics industry anyway?
ReplyDeleteI'll tell you what you're doing.
Making a bad name for all the other women in the comics industry, that's what you're doing.
I think you need to stop taking everything as some kind of affront to women, especially while you're going on about men as if they're sex objects. You hypocrite.
Also, you like All-Star Batman. You officially have the worst taste ever of anyone of any gender, race, creed, nationality, orientation, or social scene. How's that for equality? Compared to everyone else on the whole planet, your taste SUCKS. And I know someone who likes Kanye West. It's ironic, too, because Goddamn Frank Miller has built a career on writing about prostitutes.
I think you need to stop reading comics and start reading romance novels, which are probably more your speed. Unless you find those sexist too.
Need to cry now? Here's a tissue.
Joey,
ReplyDeleteGo fuck yourself.
Love,
all sane beings
"all sane beings" lol
ReplyDeleteCan't even debate my comment on its own terms eh? Just a "FUK U"? That sounds about right.
Well, Joey, it's like this. I don't want your comment to go unremarked upon, but you are obviously a misogynistic creepo who is just trying to get some attention, or who has an axe to grind.
ReplyDeleteI see no point in word-wrestling with you, you pathetic mouth breathing troll.
I simply wanted to speak to you on your level.
And further, while fucking yourself, I recommend you use a condom. I know I would.
Okay, Shirley Koklik.
ReplyDeleteMisogynist? Do you even know what that word means? Nothing I have said could be construed as misogynist by anyone with even a modicum of a sense of humour.
Oh, you mean that first line. That is admittedly flamebait. Do I actually take that sentiment seriously? No. I used it to incite anger and hatred. That's why it's called flamebait. I also use it to prove a point. Maybe if you'd actually read the entire post, you'd see that I am basically saying Val is a hypocrite for complaining about sexism towards women in comics while drooling over hairy chests.
Also, anyone who likes All Star Batman isn't deserving of love or oxygen.
I also like the whole "speak to you on my level" thing. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do better than "ook ook eek eek" if you want to speak to me on my level. Especially since you're throwing insults around like "O YA WEL UR A MISOGINUST" and "GOO FUK URSELPH!!1" and "UR A MOUF-BREETHING TRULL"
Thanks for playing!
Oh, so you're a misogynyst and a homophobe. I'd think you'd love Frank Miller.
ReplyDeleteI think Val enjoys ASBAR the same way many of us do, as the craziest thing we have ever seen, something so far oer the top it beggars description. It's like watching a car wreck in slow motion, only funny.
Now, as to the rest of your incoherent diatribe, let me be clear. I'm not being entirely hostile here.
When I say go fuck yourself, my motives are pure.
You are clearly a person in deep pain lashing out. What you need is love. Unfortunately, with your terrible attitude, you are unlikely to receive it from another human being.
What I'm really telling you, friend, is that you need to find a way to love yourself.
And I suggest you should probably be a bit rough about it. I'm not talking self-abuse exactly, I just mean really get into it more than, you know, just doing it.
And by suggesting you use a condom, I'm looking out for you. You see, you show mental signs of being riddled with syphilis.
I speak to you in the spirit of love. For real, son.
I have to interrupt this regularly scheduled flamewar to ask where the "homophobe" comment came from.
ReplyDeleteJoey's posts, abrasive as they are, do not indicate a fear and/or hatred of homosexuals in any sense.
Whoa whoa whoa, back up. What did I say that was "homophobic"? Seriously, WHAT? Where the hell did that come from? Are you going to call me a racist next? Complete a trifecta of overused guilt words? Or maybe you'll step it up a little and call me a Nazi! That would be creative of you!
ReplyDeleteA misogynist is someone who hates women. I do not hate women. I just hate Valerie. Hating Valerie doesn't make me a misogynist. It makes me someone doesn't like a hypocrite who uses the term "sexist" as a blunt instrument to get her way.
As for All Star Batman, sure, it's a trainwreck. But it's not particularly a very good one.
Also haha "incoherent diatribe"? And you dedicating over half your post to "go fuck yourself" is any better?
I love the internet, I really do. Especially the parts that talk about things like comic books and other sci-fi type properties as though they actually matter.
ReplyDeleteI realize this point has been made ad nauseum in pretty much every public online forum since computers learned to talk to each other, but do we have to be so nasty about this? It's comic books, for crying out loud. "Need to cry now here's a tissue"? Really?
While I've seen Val take certain books and creators to task for various reasons on this blog, I have not seen any evidence of the outright intentional mean-spiritedness that joey directed at her (though I fully admit to not having read the entirety of her archives). And while I realize others are coming to her defense, do we really need to start throwing words like "misogynist" and "homophobe" around? Can "Nazi" be far behind?
I enjoy a good debate (even about trivial things like comics and movies), but this sort of thing is just ridiculous. This is the comment section of a blog post about the "Titans East Special" of all things. Does it require this much vitriol? Does it warrant it? Would all the rage and fury and righteous indignation be so (for want of a better term) violent if we were all sitting in the same room together?
Again, I realize this ground is well-trod, but the "flame-war" is getting really boring. I just can't understand why someone would bother taking the time to be intentionally mean or why others would feed into it by responding in kind rather than simply ignoring the offending comment. And I know the same could be said about my little screed here, but I'm just so tired of what passes for actual discourse online and this seemed as good a time and place as any to say something.
And yes, looking back over my own previous comment on this thread, I realize I myself am somewhat guilty. "Dry-humping the DC Universe" and so forth. I try not to be overly mean-spirited, but sometimes the snark makes its way past the internal censor. None of us are truly innocent, etc. Sometimes I go a bit far for the sake of a cheesy one-liner.
But, come on. Can we at least not be flat-out cruel about these things?
That's all I wanted to say.
Carry on.
your post basically amounts to this picture.
ReplyDeleteSo anyway, I'm curious if Winnick is going to be able to use Starfire in his Titans line-up. I assume he is, since she's part of the proposed team. Is anyone reading Countdown to Adventure? Has she gotten her powers back? Or is the new Titans book going to be a post Final Crisis thing?
ReplyDeleteShe has her powers in Countdown To Adventure but is trying not to use them too much.
ReplyDeletewow.
ReplyDeleteeverything that's wrong about the internet,in just one video blog.
Joey's post was miogynistic in this sense: It was couched in terms that imply Val was giving all women a bad name by her comments. This is sexist bullshit, and is sexist bullshit because nobody would ever claim that a man is givng his entire gender a black eye for defending his viewpoint on ASBAR. It's the same kind of condescension that led people to say Jesse Owens was "a credit to his race". It implies that we are allowing women to have opinions now, and that she is endangering this privilege by misusing it.
ReplyDeleteThat's misogyny.
He is a homophobe because he called me by the name Shirley Koklik. He meant to imply that I was a homosexual, and meant that as a a slight. It says, in essence that a man who would suck cock deserves derision.
That's homophobia.
I am, as it happens, a man who loves the cock.
I am now recusing myself from this "flamewar" largely because I dont want to mudwrestle with a pig. I will not, however, let a scumfuck like Joey just go off on a person I respect without expressing my displeasure strongly.
He started this thing by being an insulting prick to a decent person.
I just continued at the level where he was most likely to respond.
The only remotely valid point joey has on offer is that Val was drooling over the men while bemoaning the drawings of the women as sexist.
Bullshit. Val is entitled to express sexual attraction or numminess, and certainly does not think men are not allowed the same option. She is, however rightly, pointing out that the drawings of the women are intentionally over sexualized, while the men are incidentally sexy.
That's because the creators don't think as much about that. Which is an issue.
I have now addressed that point.
I continue to implore Joey to seek self love with urgency.
I bid you good day.
Valid points all. And I apologize if I lumped you in with him.
ReplyDeleteBut the flamewar that was developing was following so many of the same tired steps, right down to the specific names being called that I needed to say something and I guess I ended up railing at all involved equally.
I'm new here, but in the short time I've been reading this blog I've really enjoyed it. The posts are entertaining and the comments enjoyable. I've been amazed at some of the good-natured back-and-forth I've seen between people here on a variety of issues. So when the whole mess with joey started, all I could think was, "Aw man, here too?"
So again, apologies for getting down on you for doing right by a good person who didn't deserve his nonsense.
I think I'm just getting tired of the internet.
A misogynist is somebody that hates women. Pointing out (even wrongly) that he believes one woman's words and/or behavior give a bad view of women is not an indication of hating women, it's an indication of hating behavior.
ReplyDeleteA homophobe is, quite literaly, someone who fears homosexuals or homosexual behavior. He has given no indication of that other than "Shirley Koklik" which is a stretch. Using common internet insults in a common internet flamewar (How many flamewars have you seen without people calling each other gay, queer, homo, etc.) is also not an indication of true hatred of fear. Yes, sometimes the person going "well you're gay" at every opportunity is a homophobe, but it's not always the case, and jumping on someone for "Shirley Koklik" and calling them a homophobe is silly. You did a lot better with the whole "go fuck yourself" tactic, actually that post where you detailed how that was a wish of love was really funny. I just don't and still don't see any indication of homophobia or being mysognistic.
BTW I'm pretty sure that "Shirley Koklik" is actually a reference to this comic as an indication of a really embarrassing name to have, not a sleight on gays.
john: Actually, I tend to agree that the word homophobe for a person who despises or loathes gay people is misused. It is so commonly misused, however to describe Joey's behaviour that I pretty much had to.
ReplyDeleteI view sexism and misogyny as being the same thing, and that may be a semantic point or a philosophical one here.
Chris: I hear you, and I understood your intentions. Have no fear.
I actually agree with you as to the general poor level of discourse. I was flaming him with a certain degree of irony that I hoped was evident in my word choices. I think my skill at wordsmithery may not have met my intentions.
Mea culpa.
I probably should have just ignored him. I just...well..it's a weak point with me. I hate to let guys like that get away with it.
Stupid.
First of all, click this.
ReplyDeleteSecond of all, one random insult does not a homophobe/racist/misogynist make. Stop throwing random guilt words around like they mean something.
Third of all, the fact that you lick dick has no bearing on the fact that you flat-out suck.
Fourth of all, my closest friend is a lesbian.
Fifth of all, I'm very good Team Fortress 2 buddies with a gay man.
Sixth of all, I'm friends with no less than three transgenders.
Seventh of all, many of my friends are bisexual.
Eighth of all, you're not just a tool. You're a God Damned Lowe's.
Ninth of all, jumping on me for being an insulting prick by calling me names doesn't really help your case any.
Tenth of all, hating one woman does not a misogynist make. I claim that she gives other women in the comics industry a bad name by her comments and behaviour. That is not sexism, that is not misogyny. That is a legitimate opinion, and if she wants to defend herself, that's her right, but my opinion of her behaviour is that she is a hypocrite. The whole "men are incidentally sexy" argument is horseshit, because they're just as oversexed as women in comics, if not moreso in some cases.
Eleventh of all, don't presume to "talk on my level" because I do not speak orangutang.
Twelfth of all, don't you think that by leaping to her defense because "you don't like it when men talk like that to women" you're being sexist yourself? I thought we were all equal here, and that means if you say or do something stupid, then I or someone else gets to call you on it. Telling me that I can't be frank with my opinions to someone because they're black/gay/female/anything that's not a privileged white male (and I should note that I am far from privileged and am also disabled) is an affront to the concept of free speech and it's also insulting to minorities in that they must apparently be "protected" from what you think is hate speech.
Thirteenth of all, I myself have briefly considered batting for the home team. The details and results of that consideration are not for you, however. I am under no obligation to tell you shit.
Fourteenth of all, much like Val, you seem to be offended by just about everything. My suggestion to you is that you get off the internet, go outside, take a deep breath, and then- and this is purely optional, but recommended- kill yourself.
I did not jump to Val's defense out of condescening paternalism. I did so because I respect her. I'd have done the same for any man I respected.
ReplyDeleteThat is the only one of your points I care to address.
I'm done with you.
Translation: I'm losing the argument so I'm just going to ignore 90% of it.
ReplyDeleteBoring post is boring.
The point is, I do NOT respect her, for reasons I have detailed above. That doesn't make me a misogynist or a sexist. I would attack her for the exact same behaviour if she were a man.
A few points, Joey:
ReplyDelete-Having friends who are gay or transgender doesn't mean you're incapable of acting homophobic or in some way making insensitive or insulting remarks.
-Claiming that she "gives other women in the industry a bad name as a result of her behavior" IS a sexist remark. Val doesn't represent all women in the comics field any more than she represents every woman on the planet. Claiming all women in the industry have somehow suffered as a result of your problems with her conduct/writing/etc. assumes that all women must be like her or similar enough to her that her actions are representative of all women in the industry. Women are not the Borg.
-While in principle, I agree with the idea that you shouldn't mince words when speaking with anyone if you think they're doing something wrong, in certain situations it can be considered inappropriate because of history/individual personality/etc. It's like saying that someone who's black should or shouldn't be offended by someone using the "N-word" because "It's all in the past" or some such garbage. Or, to make a connection to you as a disabled individual (begging your pardon for a moment since I don't know in what way you're disabled and for the purpose of this analogy assuming you're wheelchair-bound), it'd be like you and a group of friends arriving at a flight of stairs and the others in the group going up and then yelling at you in anger for not being able to keep up. Being frank is one thing, but then there's just downright insulting someone for something outside of their control.
First point: fair enough, but moot because I said nothing homophobic in the first place.
ReplyDeleteSecond point: Women have traditionally had a lot of trouble making headway in the industry. It's not how I view Val's behaviour as reflects on the rest, but how OTHERS do.
Third of all, what exactly did I say that was so offensive? I didn't attack her for being a woman any more than I would attack a black person for the colour of their skin. I attacked her for being a hypocrite who through her behaviour is damaging the advancement of women in an industry traditionally dominated by men. I can't even properly reply to most of the third part of your post because it's so utterly missing the point.
Oh, and just FYI I'm deaf.
ReplyDeleteReally? I don't know. My focus has been on the bloody Titans East issue and I was really just responding to your answers you gave him, in particular since several points seemed to rely on the old strawman "I am an associate of this person, therefore I cannot be homophobic/racist/sexist/etc."
ReplyDeleteI'm just a nitpicky person, so when I see a debate going on either I jump into it for one side or another or I just pick apart flaws in arguments that I see. ^^;
You misunderstand what a straw man argument is, but that's beside the point so we'll not get into it. And frankly, I don't see how if I were a homophobe, these many, many people I am friends with would consider me their friend in the first place.
ReplyDeleteJoey,
ReplyDeleteHow about this? You're a classless idiot. In other words, you have no conception of what class is.
Calling Valerie names isn't going to help anything. She's entitled to any opinions she wants. I'm not sure how saying a woman is showing excessive cleavage is being hypocritical. Now, if Valerie was a stripper and made the same comment, I could see your point.
Your argument has essentially consisted of name calling. I'm not sure there's much there to argue.
Further, I'm a bit mystified by why you being deaf matters. I'm handicapped, too, but I've never felt the need to state this during a discussion on comic books. I'm lost as to how that helps things out.
If you're wondering why everyone on this blog is ganging up on you, it's because you haven't been nice to us yet. I know I've had some open disagreements with people on here, but I've never name called and as a result, people have been willing to discuss my points on their merits.
Uhhhhh.
ReplyDeleteWhere have I called Val names other than "hypocrite"?
You're right, she's entitled to her opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. And my opinion is that when she acts like any man who so much as looks in her direction is sexually harassing her, and complains that women are oversexualized in comics, and THEN turns around and drools over oversexualized men, I have full license to call her a hypocrite.
The rest of your post leads me to believe you didn't even actually read most of the debate. I mentioned I'm deaf because someone assumed that I was in a wheelchair when I said I was disabled (which I had stated to prove that I am far from the priveliged white male blah blah just fucking read the posts.)
And haha "everyone"? Hardly, so far it's just this Ryan fella and now apparently you.
Also, telling me I have no class isn't telling me anything I don't already know. But at least I can read.
I don't really have anything constructive to add to the conversation (such as it is), but I just wanted to thank Chris for offering up the funniest thing I think I've read all week when he wrote "I love the internet, I really do. Especially the parts that talk about things like comic books and other sci-fi type properties as though they actually matter."
ReplyDeleteThat tickled me, it really did.
I thought the video review was fine. I'm aware of Valerie's bias so I knew what would probably come up. And with good reason, actually -- I'm a guy and I thought the shower bit and the hostage with her breasts popping out of her top was a bit much.
Um, please don't yell at me.
Have a good day.
John Cage
I've never said that women in comics weren't oversexed. I'm just saying men are too.
ReplyDeleteOkay, well THAT is an argumental point that has been disproven in the past. Sure, men are sexualized in comics - but not to the extent that women are and they're certainly not sexualized in order to titillate readers.
ReplyDeleteDisproven by whom? Val?
ReplyDeleteAnyway it's not so much that men are oversexualized, it's that Val whines that women in comics are only there for men to drool over, then turns right around and drools over the oversexed men. Just because it's her right doesn't make it any less hypocritical.
Read what you wrote and then think critically:
ReplyDelete"it's that Val whines that women in comics are only there for men to drool over, then turns right around and drools over the oversexed men."
Yes, Val (and others) are annoyed when women are *only* there for men to drool over. This, as I'm sure you might know, is called objectification. This practice for women in comics is very different from sexualization of men in comics, which rarely if at all has men *only* there for drooling purposes. They have definied characters, etc. The fact that you don't even understand exactly what you write is troubling.
Quick thoughts on this post and comment thread:
Joey, I don't like you. Congratulations, you sort of get what you want. I find it amusing that you "used [a post] to incite anger and hatred." You really just get pity from me because you live your life like a cranky 12 year-old boy. I do pity you. And I can't really hate what I pity. But I don't like you.
Judd (Winick), I don't like you because of this special issue. I agree with numerous reasons stated by others, as well as the fact that based on interviews about this issue I can't read this comic without picturing you patting yourself on the back, unwarranted. Anyway, otherwise I'm rather indifferent to you. But this issue was weak.
Val, I like you. You saved me money with your review and implicitly strong suggestion that it's not worth buying as well as going through most of the issue on camera. I usually don't read whole books in the comic shop, but based on your review there was no way I'd give DC money for that garbage. So thank you. And I enjoyed your review as well, not only b/c it saved me money.
I'm not here to brighten your day, buddy, I don't care if you dislike/pity me.
ReplyDeleteFor the last time: Val objectifies men while chastising men for objectifying women.
She can't have it both ways.
Joey, I have no problem with you and I'm not in the habit of censoring people on my blog who disagree with me. I don't take your criticisms of me personally, nor do I particularly agree with them. I put myself out here on this blog and speak my mind and I am ready to accept other people putting themselves out there and speaking their mind.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I think you've thoroughly expressed your opinion on this comments section, and a flame war isn't really productive. I have no intention of erasing what you've said, but I think I have to step in at some point and assume some semblance of an administrative role.
So, with all due respect to my defenders (thank you, I do appreciate it) and my critics (it's a free country), I'm going to end the flame war right now and omit any comments on this post past this point that continues this particular "thread." It's not censorship but it's getting pretty heated on both sides and I'm sure there are other things we could talk about, like grown-up Robin's leg hair or world peace.