This is an open question. I'm not saying they should or should not be.
I AM concerned, however. Comics, thank God, has not had anything tragic happen in this regard (that I know of).
But there has been harassment, stalking incidents, death threats, etc. After the whole One More Day thing I truly feared for certain people's lives. I looked at the response online, thought of them at comic cons with no protection, and worried. And I don't see it as a totally unreasonable fear.
One of the places where freelancers "let their hair down" and really communicate with the fans are on message boards. But it also makes them occasionally vulnerable.
Spider-Man writer Marc Guggenheim, in a discussion at the Newsarama boards, got targeted by one user and had his job potentially effected when the user tried to get him in trouble with a writer's union.
So do you think the risks are worth it? And in large public settings, like major comic cons, should there be some sort of protection for certain creators and company heads?
I think to close the door on the unique and historic openness between fans and the industry would be terrible. At the same time, I think there should be better moderation on boards where these industry people participate, so things never get to what Guggenheim had to deal with.
But I ABSOLUTELY believe certain high-profile comic people should have security at cons, if they do not already have it. It is a must. If you want to call me an alarmist -- that is absolutely fine. But have that protection in place anyway. I am already thinking of my security options, and I'm relatively nobody.
Post-script: Most fans are pretty respectful. There are some fans who are simply nasty. And there are a few who I would be concerned about. Some preventative measures now in terms of con security and moderated boards can go a long way. That said, there is no way to 100% protect a person. But if the industry does not take action on this now, and God forbid something does happen, the rift that is going to form between fans and creators is going to be huge -- and that sort of rift will hurt this industry. I am convinced that without that historical communication between fan and creator, sales would go down.
I think there should be security at comic cons in general. Problem is, how would you fit them in?
ReplyDeleteAs for the safety and security of creators, I guess the conventional (no pun intended) wisdom is that the anonimity of the Internet gives people a bravado that they wouldn't have face to face. It's easy to make death threats from the comfort of your own basement, hiding behind the monicker "JEDIDOOFUS2008". It's another think to do it to someones face.
That being said, when it comes to obsessive behavior like this, the line separating vague and meaningless Internet threats and the risk of actual physical harm is getting smaller everyday. An once of prevention, whether it's necessary right now or not, is a good idea.
I think anytime a thousand people focus on a single person, some kind of protection and prudence is warranted. Just statistically speaking, there must be a few crazies in the mix.
ReplyDeleteAfter many years of internetting, I find that I agree Blogger and Creatives openess with the public is a very good thing. What I don't really understand is the importance of public back and forths in fora and comments section, it's most always with a very vocal minority, and the objectives of the commenters and posters usually include the "thrill" of interaction and community, so you get some messages that are not really relevant to you. They are usually more relevant to the person trying to further some kind of "internet-persona".
I mean, if you entered a room with a hundred strangers you wouldn't give the same importance to whatever each stranger said to you about yourself and your work. Why would different rules apply to the same people on the net?
In real life, you have a few, choice-people that have earned your trust and your ear. That you know are intelligent and stable enough to be taken seriously by you.
That's why I understand Warren Ellis, Seth Godin and Chris Onstad almost never publicly interacting with people on the net, because, why bother talking in depth with someone that you're not sure will respect you or have enough sense to make it worth your while? Better to have dialogues with other creatives and then, with permission, repost them so people can learn or be entertained by them.
I've thought a lot about this, especially when other creators and writers from television and film have made themselves more accessible.
ReplyDeleteThe overall effect is good, especially since feedback helps the writing/creating part.
The problem, however, is that there are people out there who's relationships with fictional characters are beyond healthy - though this is the exception rather than the rule. Antisocial behavior is just wrought with the fanatics that are not used to being social, of course.
I remember going to San Diego last year, and just seeing the heads of comic companies surrounded by seas of fans. No bouncers, nothing. Just complete face-time with con attendees, nothing between them.
ReplyDeleteYou need *something*.
And say you have an unstable individual who decides to make an uber-crowded convention the focus of his rage. You've seen how crowded they get.
This needs to be seriously thought out. I know Wizard has some security things in place for their cons, but I would like to see what each organizer has to offer in way of protection.
Because just ONE John Lennon type incident, and this industry is going to suffer for YEARS. Even if it's the only such incident that would happen in ten years. Prevent it now.
And moderators on the big boards -- when you see the conversation taking that steep left turn into madness, step in. Because the freelancers who go on your boards attract many readers. If they feel harassed, they are going to stop coming on the boards.
I don't think I'd recognize a single comics creator if I saw them at a con outside of maybe Dan Didio or Quesada, of course I don't go to conventions much either.
ReplyDeleteI would have never thought security was an issue.
I'm with you, Val - sometimes I worry we're going to have some crazy fan who decides to murder a creator to prove their love for Power Girl or Nightwing. The internet has made the crazies a bit more pronounced, though I tend to think that most people who'd actually resort to violence can't afford to go to the major cons.
ReplyDeleteI personally love it when industry officials are open to fans, especially on message boards. I always squee a little bit inside when I see Gail Simone posting on the YABS forum, despite the fact that it's her forum to begin with. I think keeping an open relationship with fans helps get a better feel for what fans actually want out of the industry. And yes, there's always the old excuse of, "Well, the internet doesn't represent all fans," but then again we use polling data to get a feel for how people feel about certain issues. While I tend to think it's bogus, if all you've got is the internet responses, go with it! In a day and age where you can get instant feedback for your work and you can plan accordingly, I ask why not take advantage of it?
" Just statistically speaking, there must be a few crazies in the mix."
ReplyDeleteHaving been to a fair share of comic conventions, I would venture there are more than a few crazies in the mix, especially at a big show like San Diego.
Frankly, there are times at my local comic shop when I've got a wary eye on a few oddballs, so they're definitely out there.
After going through the whole of the Guggenheim thread, the interaction there comes off more like an extreme exception, rather than the rule. I do find it interesting, though, that Mr. Guggenheim didn't take part in the debate regarding the autism storyline (of course, maybe he had to work while that was going on).
ReplyDeleteAs for security for creators and professionals, I'm all for it. However, I'd hope said security were trained not just in protecting the client, but in conflict resolution and recognizing the difference between a fan and an assailant. An incident where a fan got injured could do as much damage to the industry as an attack on a creator.
I agree there should be some sort of security available to the pros. In what form that would be, I have no idea. A lot of the conventions I attend don't have a huge profit margin and good security can be very expensive.
ReplyDeleteI also think it would be a good idea for the publishers to develop some sort of training course for their professionals on Internet etiquette and fan interaction. Hell, even PRO interaction. Online feuds between pros seem to inflame the fans on both side of an argument. Who knows where that could lead? (Besides just being downright ugly.)
I've enver been to a con, but I'm surprised to hear there's no security. I'd think you would wants a minimum number of people just to keep beligerent/loud mouth nerds from ruining everyone elses fun.
ReplyDeleteJust watch for any fans carrying a copy of Catcher in the Rye. Filthy, filthy book.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, I worked in radio for several years, and there are few fans crazier than radio fans. I mean, just to care about a medium that's been dead for decades in the first place ya know? And there were lots of death threats, and even a "Stevie Nicks came to me in a dream and said it's my destiny to kill you" letter.
That, and way too much exposure to hundreds or more creepozoids at big events with no security, and neither I nor any of the many people I knew who had gone through the same thing, sometimes for decades, were ever actually attacked.
Comic creators suffer the same fate as DJs. Mildly famous to a small group, but far from rich. You get some of the hassle of being in the public eye, but few to none of the benefits. Comic creator recognition is on the rise, but I doubt the publishers think highly enough of most freelancers to draw up a security budget for them.
Having said that, when threats come in they should be traced to the fullest extent possible and reported to the authorities. When the threats are internet related, it should be easy to trace the culprit. If he's really dangerous, take care it, and in the more likely scenario that he's a 40 year old IT guy living in his parents' basement, scare the living bejeezus out of him so he understands that a lifetime spent without female contact does not make it OK to take out his anger on comic book creators.
And cons are a whole other matter entirely. Cons have changed significantly over the years. They're not the kids from Freaks and Geeks getting dressed up as "long scarf" Dr. Who and going to the local civic center anymore. They're those kids getting dressed up as the cool new Mod Dr. Who and going to overpacked gigantic venues with a billion people and Steven Spielberg, all jammed in together with no breathing room.
A con is no longer a comic convention, it is a gigantic multi-media event. Every single company that attends should have full security detail for all staff and freelancers associated with them at these kind of events. It's the only responsible action to take, and a fair price to pay for the massive amount of publicity a con generates. It's a godsend that Marvel can push Last Defenders comics to a throng of people who came to see Jack Black or Charlize Theron and may never have been to a comic store in their lives. But the flip side means actually spending some of that $2.99 a book lucre on protecting the safety of your bread and butter, your creators.
Didn't Warren Ellis write that he had security with him most of the times he was in San Diego last year?
ReplyDeleteOf course, as soon as some of the big names start taking security around a con with them, fans will just find something else to complain about.
But yeah, more security is probably needed. I've never been to one (the upcoming NYC con is going to be my first), so I'm kind of surprised to learn there isn't more.
One the one hand, comic cons have managed to be free of the craziness you might find at a rock concert or anytime Britney Spears leaves her house. But con organizers and the talents both need to think about the repercussions of someone crossing that line. The comics industry as a whole exists in this delicate balance where history has shown it only takes a small drop of media scrutiny or parental anger to shut companies down. I think it's pretty much a miracle that an advocacy group has not already been formed to rid America of manga. Over the past few years, people have turned a blind eye. Look at the Ed Kramer situation with DragonCon. If anything, that con has become more of a free for all since that incident was in the news. (Did he ever get a trial by the way?) As these things keep growing and the media starts to notice Comicon and other events, it might only take one crazy freak-out on either side of the table to bring down the house of cards.
ReplyDeleteI guess I’m saying, the industry can hope things won’t change between the pros and the fans but they need to be ready if they do.
Speaking of...
ReplyDeleteI just got a copy of the new Geek Monthly with a 2 page article of one Valerie D'Orazio.
Plug it, plug it!
Spider-Man writer Marc Guggenheim, in a discussion at the Newsarama boards, got targeted by one user and had his job potentially effected [sic] when the user tried to get him in trouble with a writer's union.
ReplyDeleteOK. That’s not what happened. Kevin Huxford simply questioned how Marc Guggenheim (being a WGA member) could publicly condone someone crossing a WGA picket line. Huxford correctly pointed out that no good union member approves of or encourages any person to cross a union picket line. Guggenheim responded that since Huxford didn’t work in Hollywood, he lacked the ability to understand the “nuances” pertaining to the WGA strike. Huxford responded to this snarky comment by stating that since his knowledge of the particulars was being called into question, he reported the matter to the WGA so they could decide if Guggenheim actions were indeed improper or not.
To assume Guggenheim would get in trouble would be to assume that he in fact did something contrary to the stated position of the WGA. If Guggenheim didn’t do anything wrong or improper by encouraging someone to cross a WGA picket line, he had nothing to fear.
To use the word “targeted” conveys something that didn’t happen. To then imply that the Marc Guggenheim - Kevin Huxford exchange on Newsarama proves that funny book professionals need physical protection when they attend conventions is absolutely absurd.
I'm with Guggenheim on this one.
ReplyDeleteI think Huxford was being a complete unrelenting asshole to Marc.
Marc specifically said that Joe did a good job, and that Joe was not part of any of the unions, therefore the strike did not pertain to him, which is totally true.
Marc also spent a lot of time picketing and striking, so one little comment about Joe Q should not be grounds to report him.
Kevin was just being a complete dick and because Marc and Dan stood up to him, he had to be a whiney baby and tried to get Marc in trouble.
The fact of the matter is:
Fanboys are fucking crazy.
Val's right, if I was someone like Johns or Slott or Morrison or Joe Q, I would definitely want some kind of protection from a bunch of people who are a little off center.
I find the fact that Kevin Huxford got involved with the personal life of a comic book professional absolutely chilling.
ReplyDeleteThis is the same person who wrote on my blog alleged personal details of another freelancer's life. Ugly stuff, and rather sexist.
There seems to be a pattern, here.
These are things that are scary and cross the line. It is the job of moderators on boards and blogs to monitor this behavior.
These are the things that make me research security options for conventions and libel laws governing the Internet, and I feel 100% comfortable doing so.
The fact that I had to even say the previous sentence pretty much sums it all up.
Sub-topic closed.
Huxford tried to sabotage Guggenheim's career because he wouldn't scold someone. It was a ridiculous, self-righteous and petty act that nonetheless could have had grave consequences for Guggenheim.
ReplyDeleteRick,
ReplyDeleteSince the Newsarama thread is still up, can you please find & quote an exact passage where Marc Guggenheim was "snarky" or unprofessional in any way.
I think while I and others did get riled up on that specific thread, Marc was completely professional the entire time.
It really is a hard thing to make sense of, because there is such a large level accessibility in the comics industry. Sometimes it almost seems like because I'm working in comics, that I shouldn't have a personal opinion.
ReplyDeleteSorry, Val.
ReplyDeleteI made that last post after reading Rick's entry, but before reading yours.
I've actually got something to say on this topic... But I was reading this on my lunch break, and I really have to get this script done.
ttyl
Dan
Interesting discussion topic, and one easy to see both sides on.
ReplyDeleteWhenever someone asks me the freakiest thing I've ever seen at San Diego, I always tell them this story. Three or four years ago, I was walking around the small press area one afternoon and I bumped into Joss Whedon. Alone. Just perusing comics and looking for stuff to read.
After shaking my head and wondering if I was seeing things, I said hello (as a good comics journo should) and made pleasantries. Then I asked him the million dollar question: "shouldn't you have some security with you?"
He shrugged and said "if you have security, it actually helps them find you."
Go figure.
But last year, I quite remember the enormous detail cutting a swath through the floor to allow Jessica Alba to get out unscathed. Damned good idea. An incident there would have ended Hollywood's love of San Diego pretty much forever.
I prefer the more cautious approach, frankly- I don't want to see anybody hurt. What Whedon was doing was awfully nervy, and it could have gone horribly awry.
Marc Mason
ComicsWaitingRoom.com
Whedon actually looks like a lot of the male portion of his fanbase. Alba, not so much.
ReplyDeleteI still don't see the link between reporting someone to a guild, something anyone can do, and that can only damage a person's career if the person did something wrong, to a psycho assaulting someone at a con.
ReplyDeleteIt would like me being a (legal) drug manufacturer and complain someone is stalking me or even invading my private life (?) because he/she decided to report me to the FDA just because I was kinda snarky to him someday.
Now getting back to the topic at hand, yeah, if I where Joss Whedon, I would, AT LEAST have the kind of security that's undercover and walking five feet behind me (dressed as stromtroopers).
I think more and more creators will just make their own boards or group together to make one. Johns' forums are unusually nice, almost Stepford-nice. I think part of the reason is because the creators on there have Moderator powers(heh).
ReplyDeleteAs for physical security at Cons, it couldn't hurt.
Juan, say you run into somebody in your community and you two have a discussion about community policy or recycling or whatever. The other person violently disagrees with you, and insists that you admit he is right.
ReplyDeleteWhen you do not admit that he is right, he secretly follows you home and goes through your garbage to see if you were recycling properly or if your lawn adhered to the community codes. When he found something to pin on you, he goes to the sanitation department or the community board and reports you.
Now, the worst that could happen in this instance is that you would pay a fine. Certainly not on the level of "Taxi Driver," right?
But who does something like that to a stranger who happened to not share the same views as himself? What is the mental process behind a such a decision?
I've disagreed with you on this board before, Juan, but I do not go online looking for dirt on you to get you in some sort of trouble as the result of our online disagreement. It would never occur to me as something that people do.
And when things go from "conversation about comics" to "contacting the IRS or employer or WGA or whatever," when the fan in question is now an element in this freelancer's personal life -- there is a serious problem.
And in that case, the moderator of the board should have stepped in as soon as those things were mentioned.
kwaku said...
ReplyDeleteI think more and more creators will just make their own boards or group together to make one. Johns' forums are unusually nice, almost Stepford-nice. I think part of the reason is because the creators on there have Moderator powers(heh).
There are a lot of disparaging and varying opinions on comicbloc, it's not as Stepford nice as you'd like to make it out to be. The difference is we don't allow the kind of reckless and purposely volatile crap that goes on at the DC Message board for example, or as I like to think of it: Dodge City before the Earps showed up.
ABOYNAMEDART, I appreciate your participation but I can't let this conversation turn into a question-and-answer with Dan Slott. He's got to write Avengers: The Initiative and then I have to read it. :-)
ReplyDeleteI think this topic should have some sort of poll... I'm not sure what the question would be, but that's why I don't have my own blog.
ReplyDeleteIf I ever make it big in comics, I'm hiring a body double just for conventions. He can sign all the autographs and do the sketches, I'll just sit behind him counting money. Kinda like Pat Lee...
Or is he still writing Avengers? Maybe now he is just concentrating on Spider-Man?
ReplyDeleteCan we hijack this conversation altogether and quiz Slott on the fate of the character Justice?
No, must stay on topic. :-D
Keep writing, Dan!
And I must say, this moderation feature is awesome!
ReplyDeleteI agree that sales would drop without the sense of community that the fan/pro communication engenders. I know I've picked up dozens of books based on positive pro participation on message boards, blogs, Q&As and such.
ReplyDeleteMs. D'orazio,
ReplyDelete(Can I call you Val yet? I realize I'm a newb here)
Not a problem. Any chance you could forward that message on to him, though? I appreciate the heads-up.
Hi Art,
ReplyDeleteIf you send the comment again, I will ask Dan if he wants to read it and respond, and then I will forward it to him.
But Valerie, the internet-guy didn't go through Marc's garbage, he just re-posted something Guggenehim had already posted on his own board. Going through someone's garbage is an illegal invasion of privacy and even private property.
ReplyDeleteIf I had to look for a "real world" example of what the internet-guy did, it would be seeking out an article I had written in the paper that supposedly "incriminated" myself.
While being mean spirited, I can't say it's any kind of breach. it's the judgement any union member exposes to when they sign up.
Now if you told me, they eavesdropped G on a restaurant saying "that'll show those WGA SOBS", or somehow hacked his computer and took his IM logs, then I'd agree Marc's private life had been violated.
But really, something we can all agree is that Slott on Spider-man is totally rad, I wish he were the only writer. Not that I actively dislike the other ones, it's just that I like Slott's writing much better.
Juan,
ReplyDeleteA fan contacting someplace related to a freelancer's job or other related personal life issues -- no matter what the circumstances -- is crossing the line.
It's not motivated by a positive impulse. It seems to be more motivated from wanting to make an impact on this public figure's life -- and, in that way, becoming a public figure himself.
And it worked, didn't it?
The obvious solution here is to ban Kevin Huxford.
ReplyDeleteFrom everything.
The security thing doesn't even seem debatable to me. Don't they usually sell swords at those things anyway?
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm curious about is what merit there is in the idea that a close-knit relationship between fan and creator benefits the industry. I've read this argument before--mostly on boards and blogs--but it just doesn't seem to track. I'm not going to argue the opposite, that the industry, or the comics, suffer due to creator/fan interaction--but why should I buy into the oft-repeated claim that it's a good thing? I like not being involved with the people who make the films I enjoy, the books I read, the music I throw on--sure, it's cool to be friends with creatives, hell, it's fun to hang out with celebrities--but how does any of that make the work better? Or the enjoyment of it? The idea that you might post a comment about what a great trick it was to have villain x get kicked in the nuts by super-hero y, and then maybe the writer will say thanks--what's the appeal in that? Well, appeal I sort of get--it's vindication, it's fannish, it's, you know, a 4-year old hugging Mickey at Disneyworld. But the benefit? If anything, it just strikes me as something that makes the entire industry look like what a lot of people like to criticize it as being: amateurish. It's as if diluting the brand by plastering Wonder Woman on underwear and hairbrushes ain't enough--now the lady who wrote it has to respond to everybody begging to tell her how much Birds of Prey "changed their life." How does any of that "openness" improve the quality of the comic? The industry?
You're totally right to say that fans and freaks and whatever else shouldn't be involved, in any fashion, in the personal life of creators. But I'd take it even further--I can't see why creators need to sit around wallowing in the sandbox of compliments. Which, horror stories about WGA aside, is pretty much all that ever happens there anyway. A bunch of people who buy 5 variant covers of X-Force telling some vain, self-obsessed inker what a great job they did drawing Domino's loincloth. It's not intelligent, it's not interesting, and it doesn't make a crappy issue of Ultimate X-Men any less crappier.
I'd agree about the need for some level of protection at cons. Any large gathering of people, especially a gathering tied so specifically to creative and fantasy elements will, simply by virtue of numbers, attract people unable to distinguish between reality and fantasy and possibly put creators in danger. Local security is OK, but high profile creators do need protection.
ReplyDeleteStill, I'm afraid i'm with Juan on this that I'm not sure I find the direct correlation to what happened to Guggenheim and the threat to comic creators. It's a dude being a huge dick, but frankly, regardless of intent, it seems like he used perfectly legitimate channels (readily available information on the internet, filing) to facilitate his grudge, which is the risk we all run in any job.
Going through someone's garbage is one thing, and I'd agree it's the next logical step for these potential stalkers, but the ready availability of information on the internet makes invasion of privacy really hard to argue for me. You can google my name (Gray Bouchard) and come up with any number of facts about me, most of which I've made available myself or through my employment, and people can very easily use that information to be a dick.
Of course it's motivated by a spiteful, negative impulse, but it is protected (at least legally) by the fact that, at least in theory, it's free information that is readily available, and that (again, theoretically) the channels he is using to be a dick are in place to protect the (theoretically) innocent and punish the (word of the day: theoretically) guilty.
To me, it's mean-spirited, spitefully, and super fucking annoying, but I do, at least for now, distinguish it from the threat of violence. The guy of course is a douchebag, but douchebags exist and as long as they don't threaten us with violence and only use legal channels to try and make our life difficult,
You're right in that it crosses a line of good taste, but honestly, it's one of those really annoying cases where, despite being in my mind an utterly repugnant thing to to a person whose sole job is to entertain and tell a story, I'd defend his right to do it. It's kinda the cross to bare for being in the spotlight.
Someone can say "I'm going to get you fired!!" and he can try all he wants. That's kinda the risk run. Is it always fair? No. But I feel that, while this person should be criticized for his intent and the obvious malice he bares for someone who, in the end, HASN'T DONE SHIT TO HIM, he should not really be lumped in with violent crazies. He's just an asshole.
Oh, and on the subject of creator interaction with fans (sorry i got on a tear there):
ReplyDeleteI suppose it's nice. I like getting some additional insight into my favorite books, the motivations, where certain things come from, but, to be honest, it's not really that big a thing for me. Its kinda a cliche, but the work should stand on it's own. INTERVIEWS I like, because it tends to be focused and have substance which is related to a specific book. When creators post on the same boards as fans, a lot of the time it gets to be a big:
Joe Blow: "How am I doin', guys? How'd ya like that most recent ish of The Amazing Fucknut?"
Fanboy 1: "U R GREAT!!"
JB: "THANKS DUDE!"
Fanboy 2: "I thought it sucked big, floppy donkey balls!"
JB: "Well sorry you feel like that. Maybe you'll like next issue, the donkey balls sucked are smaller and more manageable in size."
Eh.
I know not everyone exactly thinks like that. Cons are a nice way to show the fans that you respect them, do short little greetings, maybe answer some fan questions, and basically pay tribute, all the while not getting to into that whole scene. But if creative-types want to get all snuggly with fans, more power to them.
Hi again,
ReplyDeleteBelow is my attempt to reproduce my original post to Dan Slott. Thanks, again, for hearing me out.
-- Arturo
================
Hi Mr. Slott,
While I won't defend someone like Kevin Huxford, I do think there were a couple of instances where a response from Mr. Guggenheim escalated the issues in the Eli Stone thread.
First, during the autism debate, Mr. Guggenheim wrote the following statement:
I'm going to make the not-so-educated guess that you haven't actually seen the Pilot, have you? Because if you had, you'd know that the show makes no such claim and most certainly does not discourage children from getting vaccinated.
Please watch the show before commenting further.
Hindsight being 20-20, I think that while his overall point holds up -- judge the work based on its' own merits -- an opportunity was missed here for him to talk about why he chose that particular dramatic thread. That might have placated the debate and steered the thread back to the show.
Were the pro-vaccine posters itching for a fight? Probably. But that statement couldn't have helped tempers on either side.
As for the WGA debate, after going over the thread this morning, it looked like this was the response that pushed Huxford over the edge:
In that case, I submit that I might now a little more about the nuances of this situation than you do.
Again, while that's no doubt true, when you add that statement in with your own run-in with Huxford re: Tom Breevort, it's not surprising that Huxford would do something as out-of-bounds as dropping a dime to the WGA.
In closing, let me reiterate: I'm not defending Kevin Huxford nor anyone of that ilk. But as someone without an axe to grind on either side, I want to say that more and more, fortunately or unfortunately, it falls upon people on all sides of the message board -- visiting creators, moderators, and fans alike -- to take a step back when debates are getting ugly. Thanks again for your your time. Best of luck with all your work.
Regards,
Arturo
tucker, I think you have a couple good points but I will say I have bought comics I wouldn't normally buy after interacting with a creator.
ReplyDeleteMany moons ago I was on an Avengers mailing list that Kurt Busiek and Tom Brevoort were both on, both were great at answering questions and their enthusiasm and sincerity helped make Avengers one of my favorite books at the time.
Also a friend of a friend helped me get in contact with Tim Sale at a time I was thinking about attending the Joe Kubert school of something something comic books. He was so nice, and even though I loved his art already his kindness toally made me an even bigger fan of his.
Now I'm sure stories like this don't really effect the bottom line at any of the big companies. but these encounters (and a few others) did help feed my enthusiasm for the art of comics, and I think helped form the reader that I am today.
Well, given the vehemence of some of the things I've read on various message boards and online resources, I'd say some creators should probably be wary. It's a frightening thought, but lord... I've seen fans threatening fans all over the place too.
ReplyDeleteMost of it is internet talk, but still.
On the other hand, I'm always happy when a pro takes time out to interact with me. Kurt Busiek stopped by my blog to tell me I was putting words in his mouth he never said. End result? An increase in my respect for Kurt Busiek.
Mike Allred sometimes responds to posters on his board when he has time, which isn't that often because that guy is a workhorse! His brother Lee also spends time interacting with fans, answering questions and generally mixing it up. Steve Rude, too. Peter Bagge.
And of course, everyone's seen Gail Simone wading into more conflicts and discussions than I care to remember. Fearless and totally cool!
I'd hate to see any of that get kibboshed because some over the top nutties like to "mouth off" from the security of their keyboards. But I'd also hate to see any net controversy spill over into a real world confrontation.
That would definitely have a chilling effect.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThere are two types of dangers to freelancers:
ReplyDelete1) Getting consistently harassed and disrespected on the message boards they participate in, libeled on blogs, and possibly harassed in their personal lives.
2) Crowd situations at conventions where there might be an obsessed or unstable fan.
Both situations are unacceptable. They are not the same in severity. But they are both *unacceptable*
The first situation is addressed by proper moderation on boards & blogs and the research of libel laws.
The second situation is addressed by proper security in conventions and just a greater awareness overall.
These are both issues that need to be addressed, because letting them just build and worsen is just not a good idea.
One of the main problems with comics these days is that the fans have had too much control over the medium for far too long. All the creators come fandom, and carry with them a fan's mindset.
ReplyDeleteAs a result, comics have become abysmal stuff that only a small group of people care about.
The art created with heavy fan input isn't better as art, it's only better at feeding the desires of those fans.
A distance must be kept between the fans and creators. Aside from the typical Scans Daily "DiDio must die" crap, even in the best fan/ creator interaction situations you usually wind up with nothing more than an ego echo chamber ala the Byrne Board. And that's not conductive to good creativity at all.
The distance MUST be re-established for the health of the medium. The "We're fans too" attitudes needs to be dropped by the creators for both their possible safety and for the long term health of the medium.
I can see the purpose of having "bouncers" so to speak--but have you ever tried to interact with anyone in San Diego when those idiots from the convention center are attempting to do their job just a little bit too well?
ReplyDeleteIt's problematic all the way around for sure. One of my first years in San Diego, I was minding my own business and I bumped into a security guy guarding two actors/ brothers and the guard practically assaulted me--and this was several years ago...before it got to be as bad as it is now.
It was just a traffic accident in a cramped aisle; but, truth be told, I didn't even recognize these actors until they introduced themselves.
The same goes for comic book creators--most casual fans that go to Cons...they have no idea what anyone looks like for the most part. It's the hardcore readers and the guys trying to "break in" who usually know what any creators look like.
I've actually been physically harassed at a convention for my opinions on ComicBloc (several years ago) and a pro actually had to talk this guy out of wanting to fight me! How fucking crazy is that?!? Not to mention that I was twice the size of the guy in question--and he was in his late 30s/ early 40s!
Onto another funny part of this topic:
I think that guys like Kevin Huxford are a growing part of the problem with the fan-base and the internet, definitely.
I'm a guy who worked with Huxford for several months on Best Shots...I'll say this:
He's a shit stirrer--and he's petty, Solipsistic, and argumentative to the point of being inane and self-righteous.
Granted, I'm not perfect--but the stuff he's insinuated about me and the things he said during the thread with Guggenheim and Slott--was a bunch of garbage spewing from a despondently angry guy who is desperately trying to finish up his remedial training at a "technical institute" to be an hourly wage earning IT assistant for a phone bank--if he can fake sanity long enough to make it through the standard battery of psych tests that most real employers proctor to potential hires.
He has no background to be doing any of the critical work he was doing other than he's read some comics and had a "smattering" of small press stuff forced upon innocently unaware readers. He also has/ had minimal to no "notoriety" via Best Shots.
He's a hack--who had just enough smarts and access to a larger forum/ audience via Newsarama to be dangerous to himself and others.
Just think: Kevin participated in a thread on the 'Rama forums regarding trolls...which to me, was like letting your "weird" uncle watch your kids for a few hours while you went out to run errands.
Huxford, himself, is the worst kind of troll on Blogs and message boards. He's the kind who doesn't think he's a troll. He thinks he's trying to help people out somehow.
The problem is--we keep talking about him and guys like him...so we give him just enough juice to keep blogging about us.
Hell, I'm somewhat regretting even typing up all of this because he totally lurks this Blog to which he himself then Blogs about lurking it.
Maybe if we all just stop paying attention to him--and the three guys who read his blog so they can harass him--maybe he'll just get the hint and go away eventually?
I didn't have much of a reaction when I first read this entry. Then I read the comments thread on Paul O'Brien's blog about Secret Invasion, where one or two of the posters begin to venture into shrill BRIAN BENDIS IS A LIAR HE IS LYING ABOUT HOW LONG HE HAS BEEN PLANNING HIS LITTLE GREEN MEN STORY HE IS A DECEIVER RAAAGH territory and I was like, oh my god. If I was Brian Bendis I would be totally scared of some guy getting all Mark David Chapman on me when I'm signing people's Mighty Avengers comics at my little table.
ReplyDeleteA slight tangent- You know what a nice well moderated forum for fan/creator interaction is? Letters pages in comic books.
ReplyDeleteSure, a lot of them end up being two pages of "Wow, that issue three-five months ago was so cool!" but- given the quality of correspondence- they can be as thought-provoking and interesting as the issue itself, and some even elevated to legendary. (The letters column from The Question for example).
I don't know if anyone here recalls the letters The Walking Dead received following what I shall euphemistically refer to as the "Michonne Incident" accusing Robert Kirkman of racism, sexism, and worse. The discussion was rather heated, but I did feel as though that having the letters printed meant that the creators were taking the issues under discussion seriously- print carries a legitimacy and permanancy that blogs and boards don't always have.
Sorry to wander off topic there.
Tucker Stone made an interesting point about "knowing" a celebrity and its effect on the work. When I was a teenager, I was really into the work of a particular horror writer. His work scared the bejeezus out of me. As an adult, I stumbled across his online forum and became fairly chummy with him. Later I even got to meet him at a convention, have drinks and breakfast with him and some fellow fans. Since then, while I still enjoy his work and he's as good as he always was, something's been lost. An element of mystery that enhanced the reading experience. Instead of the possibility that these horror novels could have been written by some crazed degenerate, there was the very real truth that they were written by a smart-as-hell, fatherly and ultra-sweet fifty-year-old guy that my wife absolutely fell in love with. I'm glad I've gotten to know him but I can't say it made the work any more enjoyable. I'd say this sort of thing definitely applies to comics.
ReplyDeleteThe discussion was rather heated, but I did feel as though that having the letters printed meant that the creators were taking the issues under discussion seriously
ReplyDeleteVery true. It was classy of Kirkman to print the opinions that questioned his stance on the matter, rather than filling up the letters pages with "Gosh, Rob, you're so great."
There's far too many pundits who edit the missives of their audience to back up their own opinions (while claiming to be interested in debate), and it's good to see the medium of comic books has a few voices of sanity making the effort to offset the more vocal weasels.