The big three of DC have always been: Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. Officially in licensing and other concerns, and unofficially in the collective consciousness of the comic fan, these characters are the most iconic the company has to offer -- the Trinity, if you will.
However, Green Lantern has also developed a cult following -- the green "ring" T-shirt becoming an accepted part of pop-culture. High sales on the monthly title, plus a rumored major motion picture, may give the character(s) a bigger profile than it has ever had before.
Now, Superman & Batman are pretty untouchable as icons. But is Wonder Woman, despite her inclusion into The Big Three, really more on the same level as Green Lantern, or Flash? And could any of these "second tier" characters replace her, in some sense, as the third most popular DC character in pop-culture?
A vote for "no" -- I would hazard to guess that more non-comic readers would recognize WW than GL.
A vote for "yes" -- If the proposed Green Lantern movie succeeds at the level "Iron Man" did, I think he might get that coveted third spot. Because before the movie, I pegged Iron Man as a solid second-stringer; and now he's not.
And does/should Wonder Woman's gender play a role in this? Does her uniqueness as perhaps the most famous female superhero of all time automatically rocket her into the Big Three? Or does such a view undercut her worth as a superhero, regardless of gender, and ignore her rich history and formidable powers?
Or should there simply be a Big Four?
Vote in the poll to your right on the sidebar:
And if you are a Wonder Woman fan -- please don't get pissed at me! I'm not saying Wonder Woman is not as awesome as Green Lantern! I'm just trying to have a conversation.
Though if I had to "call" it, I'd say it largely depends on which movie gets made first, GL or WW, and how successful it is.
Speaking as a fan of both titles, I say "expand the First Tier".
ReplyDeleteVal,
ReplyDeleteAbout the Trinity. While it's certainly the fact that all 3 are very recognizable to the non-comics fan (thanks in no small part to the fabulous Lynda Carter) there is another reason they are called a Trinity.
As I've always understood it, Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman were the only 3 superheroes to survive the massive super hero bust of the early 1950's.
All other super hero titles were cancelled with Green Lantern (then Alan Scott) infamously losing his own book to his Dog (who's name I think was REx.. not sure on that)
The other problem that my impede Green Lantern from achieving pop culture status is the Lantern's 'group' gimick. Just who is the Green Lantern? There are 4 earth based sector 2814 Lanterns (and 5! if you include Alan Scott!) that's confusing. (I should also point out that I don't think Batman suffered from John Paul Valley, nor Superman from Cyborg, Eradicator, and Superboy... didn't Steel get a film too?)
I would argue that if there is indeed a big 4, the 4th member is likely to be The Flash. Simple costume, easy to understand gimick (runs fast!) and he had a TV Show.
Hell Aquaman may even beat out GL as he had his own cartoon in the 60's i think, and still shows up regularly on pop culture bastion Family Guy.
Now if only the general public would embrace J'onn J'onzz and he'd come back to us.
"As I've always understood it, Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman were the only 3 superheroes to survive the massive super hero bust of the early 1950's."
ReplyDeleteAlso, remember those "encyclopedias" that came out in the 1970s(?) for those three? DC recently reissued them? The fact that only those three characters had volumes impressed on me a a kid that those were the top three characters. Though an Aquaman would have been interesting.
I think that we really need to think that the top Three is really the top Five. I've always thought of the top heroes of the DC Universe being Supes, Bats AND Robin, Wonder Woman, and my favorite, Aquaman. Anyone else, which includes GL,the Hawks, Atom and the Elongated Man (not Plas) are fill-ins for the top five.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, I'd almost think that Robin would truly complete the trinity, but as he's (usually) associated with Batman perhaps he's disqualified.
ReplyDeleteI hate to say it, but I think most of Wonder Woman's appeal is generation for the women of Gloria Steinem's generation growing up on her. While there was the 70s TV show and her appearances on the Super Friends/Justice League shows, she's had nowhere near the prominence Superman and Batman have had across the media for decades, with Xena and Powerpuff Girls being more popular among girls over the past 15 years (and even girls who are into DC superheroes far more likely to gravitate towards identifying with BatGirl & Catwoman).
ReplyDeleteWhile Iron Man and Green Lantern are second-stringers currently, they have easily identifiable premises for people to relate to (genius inventor who wears a suit of armour; Earthman chosen to become part of an interglactic police force). Wonder Woman's biggest problem is that her original concept of Greek mythology, storybook fantasy, and Patriotic imagery is something that is so unique and of its time (and with the bondage subtext, of its creator's passions as well), it doesn't really translate to something as simple yet compelling as "alien child rocketed to Earth to become its greatest protector" or "boy deprived of his parents by criminals training himself to become their greatest fear".
However, since the original Green Lantern of the forties is a far cry visually and conceptually from the Green Lantern Corps that have superceded it, perhaps if DC was willing to just try out a "in name only" revamp a la the Silver Age revamps even dropping the star-spangled swimsuit and female objectification aspects of the character and most importantly stick with it for a few years until people realize this is the new Wonder Woman, then she might be able to legitimately be part of the Big Three as opposed to what often feels like sheer tokenism on Dc's part with her.
Heck, since the biggest problem of a Green Lantern movie is wondering which Green Lantern to focus on, maybe Hollywood should kill two birds with one stone and combine the two: An ancient Greek warrior woman gets taken to space, becomes a Green Lantern Corps member, and returns to the modern day Earth as the ambassador, armed with a power ring to teach us a thing or two about peace.
Is that was what those Encyclopedia's were? I keep picking them up on the sale rack at Midtown and not really knowing what to make of them?
ReplyDeleteUnlike most hardcore DC readers I was born in 1982 so I don't have first-hand cultural knowledge of alot of 'awesome' DC events and history.
Those Encylopedias must have been totally kick-ass in the 70's when so few things were printed outside of the floppy format.
And does/should Wonder Woman's gender play a role in this? Does her uniqueness as perhaps the most famous female superhero of all time automatically rocket her into the Big Three? Or does such a view undercut her worth as a superhero, regardless of gender, and ignore her rich history and formidable powers?
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Wonder Woman's origin has not aged well and she no longer resonates with modern readers. Wonder Woman was important as a strong woman in the world of men. In the 30's-50's the concept of a female superhero was was enough to make her unique and interesting (even if she did just end up being the Justice Society's secretary). A world with Black Canary, Oracle, Huntress, Amanda Waller, Storm, Invisible Woman, and Rogue needs more than that. The Amazon seems foolish now instead of strange and dangerous. The "man's world" has acheived far more equality and respect between the sexes than the Amazons have. So Wonder Woman is an icon for a battle that has moved on to a different level. She's a Susan B. Anthony in a Hillary Clinton world. It's a testament to her power that she's made herself somewhat obsolete, but that doesn't change the fact that these days, she's not much more than a female Superman with a less interesting backstory to most people.
I think Wonder Woman will keep her spot. Even with a movie, I think GL will still be less of a cultural icon than Wonder Woman.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the importance of the characters and the richness of their histories, if you're going to add a fourth, then it should be the Flash, the character who ushered in the Silver Age which re-established superheroes as the dominant genre of the comic book industry.
I voted for GL, but that is because the Green Lanterns as a concept are far and away my favourite Superhero 'character class', if you will. I don't want to debate which GL was better than another, but my affection for them always stemmed from the fact that anyone could be a GL, if they had sufficient willpower.
ReplyDeleteThat notwithstanding, Wonder Woman should still be one of the Trinity, as she is an awesome multi-powered hero with a rich mythology, regardless of her gender.
They rereleased the encyclopedias? I only have the Superman one. I'll have to check those out.
ReplyDeleteAs Michael said, the huge draw of WW IS that unlike GL or the Flash, she's more or less survived intact since her first debut. All of the "trinity" characters have, no matter what rumblings there've been about legacies.
ReplyDeleteBarring the (what I think it totally stupid) return of Barry Allen, the Flash, like the Green Lantern (one of my favorite titles and probably the only thing I'm liking from DC these days) is a legacy title, having evolved through writing to become something that can be passed down.
Granted, I'm one of those people who thinks Alex Ross should've lightened up on his Kyle hate, but still, every single GL has their own fanbase and can stand out on their own in books, especially considering the way the GL title is going these days. It's not about "the man" or "the woman", it's about what the symbol means (literally, like the GL lantern logo, and metaphorically).
Wonder Woman hasn't worked like that, at least not to me. It's all Diana, all the time. Same with the other two of the Big Three, which makes for all sorts of nerves and potential drama as we wait to see the end of "Batman RIP".
Wonder Woman's position in the "big 3" spot is assured, not so much because of Green Lantern's burgeoning popularity but because of his non-specific nature.
ReplyDeleteSuperman is Clark Kent, Batman is Bruce Wayne, Wonder Woman is Diana from Themyscira -- they have stories that people understand and identify with.
But Green Lantern is a job title, not a character, with a complicated backstory about duty and tradition. I like GL a lot, but the general public does not fall in love with a job title, they fall in love with a character.
It is pretty subjective on who's higher on the scale. I dig Wonder Woman, she's really interesting. Plus, I have a soft-spot for mythology. So, she really works on that aspect. Green Lantern, I never really got into those books, but I love to see them in team books. There the Jedi of DC! Heck, their stories are somewhat similar, Sinestro - Count Dooku, Hal/Parallax - Anakin/Vader, etc. As a movie they would both work out in a really big way. When was the last movie to tackle anything of Greek/Roman myth and space-operas, if done right, will always be a hit blockbuster. Again, subjective. I never heard, in my life, someone say they disliked Wonder Woman because she's unrelatable. So, a Superheroine movie would really work in her case. Green Lantern is a no-brainer. The imagination it instills on people because that's technically their power...imagination.
ReplyDeleteI have a friend with a GL-ring tattoo on his finger. And, my LCS lady (That's the opposite of guy, right? Heh) would murder anyone if it meant she could obtain a WW item she normally couldn't get. So...they both could easily be EPIC franchises. I do a mid-nighter for the premieres of both.
I think Wonder Woman should remain part of the big three, but I still think she's one of the most misunderstood characters of the DCU. So many writers have trounced all over how they think she should be portrayed, it's honestly a miracle that she's still as widespread as she is.
ReplyDeleteFlash, baby. What kid doesn't want to be able to go faster than anyone else?
ReplyDeleteEr-- I just realized my first sentence shouldn't be taken as a suggestion. Not that I wouldn't appreciate it, of course, but-- I'm just digging myself deeper here, aren't I? I'll stop now.
ReplyDeleteIf you're talking geek-cred, maybe there's a battle. Among non-geeks? No contest. Wonder Woman all the way. I bought an apron the other day, and hanging on the rack with all the other unlicensed merchandise were "Wonder Mum" aprons. There were no "Lantern Dad" or equivalents, and I would be surprised if there ever was, even with a movie.
ReplyDeleteI'd say Batgirl has more going for her as a potential Big Three character with the movie appearance (yeah, okay, terrible movie, but still counts), the tv shows (1960s Batman, Batman TAS, The Batman, Birds Of Prey), videogame appearances, and not even being crippled stopped her being a hero in the comics, so there's more to work with than there is with Wonder Woman - whose appeal seems purely based on the fact that she's tough and her TV show had an awsome theme tune.
ReplyDeleteSupergirl might have been a contender, but I'd have trouble selling the current costume to the general public with a straight face - which is where myself and the average sex-store owner are different people, apparantly...
I like the current Green Lantern story. He ain't no WW though.
ReplyDeleteOnce people realize that Batman could beat Superman, but Wonder Woman could kick the crap out of Batman? Then, I'll be happy.
Also-- acknowledging that part of WWs success is her gender isn't undermining her.
ReplyDeleteFor me Wonder Woman is in their simply for the XX Chromosomes. I don't find her particularly compelling and her origin is nearly as convoluted as Power Girl when you consider thew weird ret-conning for the JSA version and then adding cousins and clones and all the girls and lasses that have taken up the mantle and don't forget the de-powered 70's years that I believe involved karate.
ReplyDeleteYet she still beats out GL and the Flash for a simple reason: she's herself, there is no other "wonder woman" proper
The Flash has had 3 legitimate people under the mask pull long stints: Jay, Barry, and Wally
As others have mentioned, the GLs aren't a single person, but a collective and the even earth doesn't have just one.
That's just my take though.
Wait,
ReplyDeleteThe poll says who do we like more. Are we responding with who we like more, or who we think should be part of the big three?
I dig them both, even though to be honest, GL is a lot more accessible for a new fan...and the concept (even though I don't like what is being done with it currently) is really adaptable because anyone of good character and strong will could put on a ring and be Green Lantern. It has the same appeal as Iron Man because it doesn't involve being born with powers or being given powers by a god or being a creature of the night.
ReplyDeleteanyone that thinks Green Lantern can take Wonder Woman's place in Pop-Culture is kidding themselves. My grandma knows who wonder woman is, I'm sure she has no idea who Green Lantern is (she does remember the green hornet though). Even a big hollywood block buster wouldn't be enough to change the status quo. There's the tv show, the history, the fact that she is "the female superhero" to most of the non comic reading public. It's all too much for any of DCs 2nd tier characters to overcome.
ReplyDeleteNow you could easily argue that her place in the DC universe is erroding away, but as far as pop-culture goes it's no contest.
Expand the "Trinity." It's not like it's more than a marketing catchphrase anyway. All it would take is one killer run on any second tier character and possibly a movie to vault one or the other into a top spot.
ReplyDeleteRemember over at Marvel when Uncanny X-Men was a cult series (there was a time when Teen Titans was actually more popular)and Daredevil was a nobody?
So it can happen. The real winner? The comic book reader.
Anyway, I do like WW a bit more than GL. Heck, I like her a LOT more than I like Batman. But I like the Flash, too. He had a TV series and was almost a contender.
So why not a Quinitry? Or some other less made-up word. Supes, Bats, WW, GL and the Flash. They're all you really need, anyway. It's not like the idea of a "Big Three" is immutably locked in the laws of nature or something or the linchpin of a religious system. It's a convenient label.
There's a Six Flags billboard on one of the roads near my place it has Batman and Robin in the center and on the flanks Superman, Flash and Green Lantern (John Stewart). Says something about their marketing priorities.
ReplyDeleteMy vote is for GL; I understand the mythos and appeal of WW but I've never read a WW story that interested me.
Other heroes have missions: fight crime, truth, justice preserve the peace. Wonder Woman is supposed to educate our world about peace by beating people senseless? She is way down my list on credible backgrounds.
Just read someone's brief mentioning about The Flash...now that is a movie I would love to see. Man O'Buddha! Please don't ask whether I'd prefer Barry or Wally...I'd fade into the Speedforce with that thought-overload. (That statement was a little too nerdie...eh.)
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of outside-the-box of DC franchises: Where is Robinson's Starman? SERIOUSLY! It could open up Justice Society films...and it could be a modest continuation of the Captain Marvel flick (Is that still planned or is that in development-hell...is there a development-purgatory?...nm.) Anyways, ya, so many licenses that are cheaper and, in some aspects, better than what people are familiar with.
The Trinity exist as a trinity because they are cultural icons with a recognition and significance that far out strips their monthly comic book adventures. Wonder Woman is most certainly an icon and because of that deserves to be part of the Trinity. Green Lantern is a great superhero and may even be more successful than WW in modern times, but he/they are not iconic in the same way.
ReplyDeleteFrom a historic perspective, it could be argued that Captain Marvel and Plastic Man deserve to stand with the Trinity as they were the headliners for Fawcett and Quality Comics. Although they didn't survive the Golden Age in quite the same as Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman they still hold some measure of cultural inertia.
An with respect to the "expanded first tier" argument. It already exists as the Justice League.
I think GL would win out, but he certainly has a identity crisis (no pun intended). How many times have you heard someone ask why Green Lantern is black. John Stewart isn't the GL anyone over the age of, I don't know, 12 grew up with. Yet he's who the kids know as GL. So the question becomes who do you market as GL?
ReplyDeleteWonder Woman has iconic status. Green Lantern does not. Or, at least, that's what I've found when relating to non-geek friends, co-workers, and associates.
ReplyDeleteI'd say Green Lantern, based on popular recognition, ranks below The Flash and Aquaman in terms of cultural recognition. The Green Lantern movie might change that.
Her current origin story in the comics is just about completely not relevant to her cultural status. People know who she is, that she has an invisible jet, a lasso, and bracelets.
The one thing in the pop culture landscape that she truly lacks is villains. Lex Luthor, Bizarro, the Joker, and Catwoman all reside in pop culture. Wonder Woman, of course, has no one of comparable fame.
@ryan
ReplyDeleteWell historically I suppose her major villain has been poorly timed bondage scenarios.
I always figured the differential was that Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman all have had their own solo TV shows.
ReplyDeleteI'm a life long WW fan,so I obviously have a bias here. I have enjoyed reading GL though off & on in the past. As far as non-comic folks are concerned,I can't really see GL ever surpassing Diana's iconic status. How many little GL's did anyone see trick or treating this year? We had at least two wee WW come to our home.
ReplyDeleteAlso,during this election year both Hillary Clinton & Sarah Palin were refered to as Wonder Women by their various supporters. You can even find buttons(and stuff) of them in Wonder-gear on Ebay & Cafe Press. Lynda Carter(the WW of a generation) herself even came out & publicly denounced Palin as any sort of WW.It got pretty surreal at times(LOL).
To use a political analogy: The tent is big enough for everyone.
ReplyDeleteRanking superheroes... that's like ranking the hottest writers. Kinda tacky.
Wouldn't it be cool if ALL superheroes were popular?
However, regarding Wonder Woman's appeal to a general female audience... Supergirl and Catwoman are also quite popular. (Supergirl will garner the tween crowd with her new Johnny DC book, and Catwoman appeals to the older teen "bad girl" demographic.)
Hmmm.... if Trinity morphs the way "Brave and the Bold" did, then DC could try a trinity of WW, SG, and CW. (If CW meets the Wizard and gets a heart.)
The three DC encyclopedias were meant to be part of a bigger set.
For me its Wonder Woman all the way.She has gravitas to stand with Batman and Superman.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of the Green Lantern Corps. but they have always been a group and often interchangeable(Hal,John,Guy and Kyle). I do like GL (who ever he/maybe she? happens to be).
Also Wonder Woman was and is more than just a character who educates people about peace by beating people senseless,that's just a weak analysis and complete lack of understanding about the character.
I've been thinking that since New frontier ( which was like 1/2 about Hal) But rest assured WW fans Guy Gardner will never be known as a superstar.
ReplyDelete