Can this actor play Batman? He's handsome, buff, and has won several acting awards. Is there any reason why he could not play Batman?
Can this actor play a young Robin?
Can this actor play Nick Fury?
Can this actress play The Wasp?
Could Dean George Tanaka play Superman?
If you are a talented actor or actress, should you be limited to the parts you can play based on your ethnicity or skin color? If we say that Batman can only be played by a Caucasian person, should the same reasoning hold true for Shakespearian characters? If Avery Brooks plays Macbeth, does that spoil the play? I can't see how it would. When I studied Shakespeare abroad, I saw actors of a variety of ethnicities and skin colors play traditionally "white" roles. It didn't make a difference. Shakespeare is timeless. So is the Bible. That's why the best-selling "The Bible Experience" audiobooks, featuring a star-studded cast of African-American actors and actresses, has been received so well. You know who is the voice of God in "The Bible Experience?" Samuel L. Jackson. I can't argue with that choice -- can you?
But what if the new voice for Batman in the cartoons was African-American Phil Morris? Would fans complain? I bet you, some would.
Aren't characters like Wonder Woman, Batman, and Superman timeless as well? Shouldn't they be?
I know the typical counter-argument to this: "then we should have Caucasian actors play characters of color as well! Fair's fair!" But hasn't this been going on in Hollywood like forever anyway? White actors play Asians and Native Americans. The guy who played the "Crying Indian" in that famous PSA was Italian. Even in the movie "A Mighty Heart," Angelina Jolie plays Mariane Pearl, a woman of African, Cuban, and Dutch descent. And the biggest case of a white guy playing a person of color:
Seriously. Jesus most likely did not look like Robert Powell, Max von Sydow, or Ted Neeley. Sorry. No offense to Ted Neeley. I loves me some Ted Neeley.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on it. And I still would prefer Beyonce play Wonder Woman than Megan Fox. I understand the arguments against Beyonce's acting ability. But it's not like Megan Fox is Katherine Hepburn.
Gina Torres will always be a Big Damn Hero and can do whatever she wants! I've thought she was great candidate for Wonder Woman since Joss Whedon first suggested the idea.
ReplyDeleteThank You! They wouldnt allow me to sign on to the 'Rama so I can add my 2 cents but you just said everything I wanted to say. It just seems like random rants to me and I think Bee as Diana would be interesting to say the least...
ReplyDeletewhat if their ethnicity is big important role in the character role.
ReplyDelete-Can a japanese play the new blue bettle?
-Should a caucasian play an african slave in a movie set during lincoln times?
I dont care if the kingpin or nick fury is white yellow or purple, but it really depends on character in question.
Honestly, the only reason I see to care about the race/ethnicity of the individual is if it impacts the story. It's one thing to have Beyonce playing Wonder Woman. It's another to have Will Smith play Jim West.
ReplyDelete-greyman24
Let's See...
ReplyDelete1.Wow, good choice
2.certainly
3.Absolutely
4. Not only can he, but he is in fact tired of all the motherfuckin HYDRA on the motherfuckin Helicarrier
5. Gosh no, I can't stand her... hmmm maybe that would work
6.Yep, He wasn't terrible... It was a sort of superhero show that my wife actually watched with me back when it was first run.
I have no issue with good actors playing roles that they work well in. I have more of an issue with making a crappy movie or show.
I guess from a company standpoint there could be an issue with having a black or asian batman in the movies, and having the same old white batman in the comics.
A well written movie with good actors that feel like the characters is what matters. The worse the acting is, and the worse the writing is, I think you need them to look more like what you envision. I think that is true even of the Shakespeare example. If you do Hamlet set in space and you do it badly with bad actors, the first thing to be attacked will probably be the setting, and the differences.
I think it depends on the role. I can see a black Batman, a woman Flash, or an Eskimo Aquaman before a wheelchair bound Black Panther, a gay Captain America, or (in this case) a black Wonder Woman. Some aspects of a character are tied to their origins. Batman's generic European heritage doesn't come into his day to day life or his reason for being a superhero. But Wonder Woman is a "woman in a man's world". Part of her story is a feminist one, one of overcoming sexism and proving herself in a male dominated field (superheroism). If you add in the aspect that she's black you have to do one of three things:
ReplyDelete1: Ignore the struggles she faces for being a woman and the struggles she faces for being black. This turns Wonder Woman into a generic action superhero, and lacks any direction for her character.
2: Focus on her struggles as a woman and ignore the fact that she's black. This breaks any sense of realism. Not saying that we've defeated gender discrimination, but to not touch on racial discrimination would seem like a gaping hole.
3: Focus on her struggles with sexism and racism. This would be a fascinating story. But it's simply not Wonder Woman. DC's Wonder Woman doesn't face racism herself, and so to follow this thread you'd pretty much have to do an elseworlds version, or reboot the character from scratch.
I believe in colorblind/genderblind casting for certain projects, but not in stories about things like color and gender. You can't be blind to them and address them simultaneously. You can't do a colorblind Othello or Raisin in the Sun. You can't do a genderblind Top Girls or The Women.
I believe that it depends on nature of the character's background and whether that would need to be changed substantially to accommodate a racial or ethnic change. For example, while I generally agree that Wonder Woman should be (or look) Greek or Mediterranean, I am fine with Gina being WW.
ReplyDeleteOther characters like the Thing, Harry Osborn, and Janet Van Dyne could easily be any race without substantial changes to their storyline.
However, a situation where I think it would be ludicrous is illustrated by the idea of Will Smith as Captain America if the WWII origin is kept substantially intact. It is a (unfortunate) matter of history that neither the military nor the US government would have put their propaganda machine behind a black supersoldier. If the producers did decide to go with a black Captain America, his origin and career would need substantial revision or otherwise appear very revisionist of our national history. Might still be a really great story, but not the one everyone is familiar with.
Another character who should not change is Thor (he is Norse). Also, I am really going to go out on a limb and say Black Panther should be black as he is an African monarch.
Actually you make an excellent point. However I would hope that it will never get to a point where someone will be considered for a role just because hiring a person of color is trendy. I mean Gina Torres as WW? Absolutely. Beyonce? No sorry. However sometimes I do wonder if race is more integral to certain characters than it might be to others. For example to cast say Sam Jackson as Superman might in some ways under cut what I think has always been an essential part of Superman's message, which is that we almost all feel like outsiders at one time or another in our lives no matter how "inside" we may be, by dint of appearence, or money etc. So I don't think that all roles at this time can neccesarily be cast color blindly without losing some of the deeper aspects of the character. However there are very few characters for whom I would make that argument.
ReplyDeleteThis is a PC safe blog it seems. I could see DC wincing at a black Wonder Woman. If I owned the license which is what Wonder Woman really is, I'd be concerned greatly. You can't put in on the same level with Shakespeare. That isn't licensed like a lot of things are. I don't see MacBeth action figures at Toys R Us. I sure as hell wouldn't make a Dora the Explorer live-action movie and get a white kid for the part. It would need to be a latino/mexican actor to do it since that's what the cartoon character is like. Some on this blog would make Yogi Bear a beaver instead of a bear. Conflict within a single license is not good to my way of thinking. I never liked Eartha Kitt as Catwoman either. She came in after you had two white actresses play the role. It fell apart. Either do it in the beginning and stick to it or keep what you have established. Duncan in Daredevil was just ok but he needed more weight to him. The new Star Trek thankfully seems to keep everything on par... but maybe I honor the source material more than most.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you on Wonder Woman.
ReplyDeleteGina Torres is a beautiful and powerful woman, but most importantly, she can act.
I wouldn't suggest disregarding an actor's physical appearance — of which race is a part, of course — but ethnicity alone needn't rule someone out if it can work dramatically. Or comedically, depending.
Ditto with the rest, plus Patterson Joseph as Doctor Who. Or whomever.
I would love to see (that actor, whose name escapes me) as either Bruce Wayne or a similar character.
ReplyDeleteI've liked that actor ever since a show called Rising Son, and he's really, really menacing and scary in Joy Luck Club (yes I saw it, don't judge me, guys).
Failing that, I would love to see Gina Torres as Storm or as Vixen (she's already done the voice for Vixen on the JLU cartoon).
I'd love to see Gina Torres play WW! Beyonce doesn't get my vote, I keep thinking of her character in Goldmember, and can't manage to think of her believably smacking anyone down. She just doesn't seem powerful to me. Torres, on the other hand, is easy to imagine kicking down a brick wall WITHOUT super-powers.
ReplyDeleteHalle Berry didn't work as Catwoman.
ReplyDeleteI think it depends on how iconic the character is. Sam Jackson as Nick Fury works. A black Batman, Wonder Woman, or Superman doesn't work as well. I don't even think a black (or hispanic, asian, etc.) Spider-Man would work, and you can't even see his skin when he's in costume!
Beyonce can't act. As long as they can act, I don't care. Also, they need to be in superhero shape.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that these fictional characters can only be played by a person of a certain race is really silly. Superman can't be black? I guess there were no black people on krypton? It's krypton for pete's sake it doesn't really exist, you can make it whatever you want. Oh wait superman has 60 years of white history behind him. Great! you're right how can we just ignore all these previous fictional accounts of this fictional character. It would be madness! madness!
ReplyDeleteHalle Berry didn't work as Catwoman because it was a shitty script with a shitty director. Period.
ReplyDeleteBerry was the LEAST wrong thing about that piece of crap.
Could I not have to choose between Beyonce and Megan Fox to play Wonder Woman? This is like when I heard Matthew McConaughey was being consider for Captain America.
ReplyDeleteTo answer rhetorical questions:
I'd be relieved if Gina Torres played Wonder Woman. That would be nice. As a fan of the character, I've been taunted with horrible actresses like Beyonce as contenders for the role for years. Torres was excellent as Vixen, and showed her action chops on "Firefly" and "Cleopatra 2525."
I don't think Russel Wong can pull off Batman, from what I've seen. Very tricky role.
Will Smith's kid shouldn't play Robin any more than his dad should play Cap. Matt Damon should play Cap. Just saying.
I could have done without Sam Jackson as Nick Fury, but when you consider David Hasselhoff wasn't really a bad choice to play Nick, it's probably best to go with the Ultimate version.
Eva Longoria would be a fine choice for the Wasp.
I was never big on Dean Caine as Superman. He was okay, but kind of generic. In other words, too much like the Post-Crisis Superman.
It's not that I don't get the point, but I can indirectly answer and have my fan service, too.
I'd have a bigger problem with a non-Mediterranean actress as Wonder Woman if, in comic book continuity, we've seen that Amazons need not be white. Well, and Wonder Woman is technically an animated statue and could be whatever her mother decided to sculpt. There was a supporting cast member called Nu'Bia who was supposed to have been Diana's twin sister, sculpted at the same time. That's some obscure comic book knowledge there, but it does provide some precedent.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, you could argue that comic book characters are more defined by their color than prose characters. Because quality of art varies so widely, we identify comic book characters by only a few visual hooks. Superman has dark, slightly curly, hair and blue eyes, and we know Clark Kent by his glasses and clothing? Nick Fury could be black because his visual hook was his eyepatch, just as Kingpin's visual hook was his suit and bulk.
Wonder Woman's iconic hair is long, black and curly, but she's also pale-skinned and blue-eyed... Which visual hooks are essential, here?
WW should be brown. I've said it a bunch. In general, I like multi-ethnic casting for supers-- they are white MOSTLY by oversight. Some of them-- Batman in particular-- don't work cross-race though. Positing that race doesn't exist is a bad move. Black Nick Fury works because flipping the race adds subtle nuance to American readers. Black Batman is a whole different story. It could be a fine story, but it isn't the SAME story. Some stories-- Daredevil-- could actually work very well. Irish used to code something very different than it does today.
ReplyDeleteWell... Lynda Carter is of Irish and Mexican heritage. (STRONG Mexican background.)
ReplyDeleteIf you set up the Amazons as a multi-ethnic society, then race becomes less of a concern. Does the "paper bag" test come into play with casting? I don't know. But then, this summer, there was a movie about a black superhero who was married to a caucasian, and it was a box office hit. (Even more surprising... the actress playing the white wife was from South Africa.)
Pick a good actress who is believable. Make it the best damn movie you can. Because DC does not want a repeat of San Diego, when they announced there would be a Constantine movie (HURRAH!), and it would star Keanu Reeves (crickets chirping).
I liked Elizabeth Banks in Spider-Man 3, although she is a bit small for the role. Priyanka Chopra would be nice. heh... how about Lindsay Lohan?
Cartoonpow has a point - WW is a trademark to be licensed and deviating from the brand image is not something to be taken lightly Coca-cola is going to consider long and hard and before changing its trade dress. DC and Marvel will likeley feel the same about their more iconic heros.
ReplyDeleteBeyonce and Megan Fox are both TERRIBLE choices to play Wonder Woman. Can we move on please?
ReplyDeleteOh hell yeah, Gina Torres can play the new Wonder Woman. Beyonce? I really don't see it.
ReplyDelete1.Yes
ReplyDelete2.Never seen him before but maybe.
3.No. He has the Smith taint.
4.Yes
5.Yes
6.Only in a romantic comedy.
I have wanted Gina Torres to play Wonder Woman for years -- ever since I heard there would be a Wonder Woman movie. Not only do I think she *can* play Wonder Woman, I'll have a hard time accepting anyone else in the role.
ReplyDeleteAnd also: Thank you for posting a picture of Gina Torres. I am *always* happy to find an unexpected picture of Gina Torres when I surf.
ReplyDelete(And no, Jesus probably didn't look like Ted Neely, but he could almost certainly RCOK OUT!)
I thought Jesus looked like Jeffery Hunter?
ReplyDeleteValerie, I'd like to thank you for once again challenging my assumptions and making me question my thought process. That said, I don't think you're going to like my conclusion.
ReplyDeleteI love Gina Torres. She's totally badass and has the right feel to be Wonder Woman. Here's the thing, though-- I could only really consider her a version of Wonder Woman. Just as Sam Jackson is a version of Nick Fury (though at least with grounding in one Marvel Universe).
See, to me, there are superheroes that are more about image, and superheroes that are more about personality. Sam Jackson makes an awesome Nick Fury because Fury was never "a white guy with an eyepatch", he was always "a badass motherfucker with an eyepatch". But Superman and Wonder Woman are way more about their image, about being a symbol than about their personalities (and I'm going to get killed for saying that, I know). Batman, at least, is equally about image and personality, but until there are more billionaire industrialists of color, only casting a white guy will really ring true (I could see a black Robin, though).
Likewise, while a race-blind society is ideal, a history-blind society is a nightmare. Therefore black Steve Rogers, super-soldier of WWII, to me at least, would be another kind of insult, because it would require that the audience ignore the America's shameful racist past. By all means, address racism in the Captain America film. Have him find out about Isaiah Bradley, if not in the first film, then in one of the sequels or the Avengers. But don't pretend that the US of the 1940s would have chosen a black guy as their propaganda tool.
And if anything, I think your point about Dean Tanaka/Cain proves more what I'm saying than anything-- it's not his ethnicity that matters, it's the appearance. He may be a quarter Japanese, but he still looks like Superman. Same with Jessica Alba being Sue Storm. Yeah, there's often a significant overlap between ethnicity and appearance, but it's not the defining criterion.
I'd say yes to any of them in those roles with the right script and overall approach to the movie, i.e., avoid the cutesy tongue-in-cheek product placement sub-mental dreck that characterizes the Fantastic Four flicks.
ReplyDeleteAlthough for some reason I've just never warmed up to Eva Longoria.
I understand there are always going to be purists who basically want the movie to be the comic book translated exactly to the screen complete with tights and colored underwear on the outside of the costumes but strangely enough, superhero movies aren't specifically made for superhero fans.
For one thing, you'd be dumb to spend 150 million bucks on a movie aimed at approximately 100,000 people.
As long as they get the essence right and respect the material and don't try to camp it up or... funny for this genre... dumb it down, then I'm all for creative or innovative casting choices. In some cases they can actually improve a movie. People were up in arms against Michael Keaton as Batman, but until Christian Bale came along, he was practically the gold standard.
I, personally, though he sucked.
During the production of Memoirs of a Geisha, if I remember correctly, some Japanese-Americans were upset at the casting of Chinese actresses in the main roles. I thought it was kind of odd myself- I mean, are there no Japanese actresses anywhere in the world who could have at least played the flimsy characters of the film version?
The answer- none with the U.S. recognizability of Zhang Ziyi, Michelle Yeoh and Gong Li. And I certainly didn't object to seeing those three actresses beautifully adorned in kimono and gorgeously photographed.
Most of my students here (in Japan) were kind of blase about it. They thought the casting a little weird, but ultimately they didn't care.
And, it seems, neither did the American moviegoing public. A pre-production Oscar contender didn't do bang-up business at the box office, didn't receive much critical acclaim and generally underperformed.
Due to the casting? Nah. Due to the sketchy story and the rickety script. Pretty pictures about nothing.
So basically what I'm saying is- damned if you do, damned if you don't, just have a strong story and some assured direction, don't cheese it up too much and people will get over their problems with the casting and the movie will rise or fall on its own merits.
No matter what a very few generally obsessive fans object to. Including myself.
I understand the point you're making, but at the same time you are essentially trying to guilt people into not having a problem with Beyonce or another African-American woman playing Wonder Woman. It was pretty slick, even throwing Dean Cain in there and using his birth name and everything but it is a bit unfair. Just because someone feels that Beyonce or even Gina Torres shouldn't play a character that has been presented as caucasian doesn't mean that they are bigoted, which is essentially the point you are making or at least that is how I took the point you are making. Your argument is that it shouldn't matter and there is some merit there, but doing so in the way that you did so is setting up anyone that doesn't feel that way, which is a lousy way to make a point.
ReplyDeleteEven worse you try to undercut anyone that would rightly point out that the door doesn't swing both ways. No one is saying that the Italian Indian was the right thing to do and to throw that into the mix is basically saying, "By the way, if you feel this way you're wrong too because it has happened in the past." Again, a lousy way to make a point.
Should Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman be timesless? Sure, but the Bible was written over a thousand years ago. Shakespeare's plays several hundred. Enough time has past that it doesn't matter. I think here, with characters that are only seventy or so years old with several successful movie franchises and one heck of a television series that are still in recent memory that the public perception is that these characters have a certain skin color and there is nothing wrong with thinking that way.
Gana-Bighdall was the only one with diversity because they were woman from all over. They weren't the original, immortal Amazons. -To someone who mentioned around the ethnicity of the Amazons.
ReplyDeleteGina Torres is a great actress. I was late on the Whedon train, specicificall Firefly/Serenity, and am now pretty big fan. I just don't think she's for the part.
We have roughly 70 years of Wonder Woman, Diana Prince, having an appearance of Greek decent. That isn't a narrow-minded. Why mess something up that has worked for years, let alone that that is the character. I mean, especially her concept of Greek mythology.
Plus, I think people might see it as another Catwoman, whether they know how good an actress Torres is or not.
Oh... and we do have a lonnnng Hollywood history of white actors and actresses essaying roles of color, including the Angelina Jolie turn in Wanted recently. But I guess since the character's ethnicity didn't play a role in the story, it wasn't seen as such a huge deal by the public at large.
ReplyDeleteBut I can see this constantly going the other way and that makes me look at casting objections in a different light. I mean, Jack Black in Nacho Libre, and on back in time through black-, brown- and yellowface roles. The track record isn't so great.
So if Samuel L. Jackson can play a better Nick Fury than David Hasselhoff, then I'm ALL FOR IT!
Yes, no, not with that hair, hell yes, no, I have no idea who that is.
ReplyDelete(Batman kinda has to be white, because, really, no one is going to believe a multi-ethnic or minority kid inheriting a fortune when his rich folks buy it. We're not quite there yet.
And Eva Longoria sucks.)
Oh... and a semi-correction. It turns out I was remembering the Geisha casting controversy incorrectly. Some Japanese did have a problem with the casting (although I stand by the general yawn that greeted the news here in Japan), but actually an outcry came from China, where the movie was eventually banned.
ReplyDeleteLive and learn... and I should always do a little Google-work before I type away with my half-remembered nonsense.
Anyway, I think the points still stand.
Well, some people believe that since the president has been played by a white guy for the last 300+ years, it would be weird and almost wrong to have a black guy in the role.
ReplyDeleteNow that sounds completely snarky and facetious -- but some people really do think that way.
If Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman have indeed reached "mythic" status, as some people claim -- then they are timeless and open to many interpretations and presentations. That's why we have Elseworld stories, and the movies are in effect "Elseworlds" from the get-go, establishing another version of the characters in question.
John Cho, from "Harold and Kumar," has everything he needs to play Peter Parker. He's a good actor, he's attractive, he's funny, and he's the right age. He's even got the personality. Why shouldn't he have a shot to play Peter Parker in a movie?
"Because Peter Parker's ethnicity is an intrinsic part of his character."
Really? Oh, because there have been so many storylines based on this.
You can't have a Korean Peter Parker? There are plenty of Koreans in Queens, NY. Just call him Peter Park, if you must.
If it is going to come down to race, then let's get that on the table and say that. It's not to point a finger and say "racist" or anything like that. It's to get it out on the table and be honest about it.
For someone to say: "I know Gina Torres might have the talent, body, and beauty of Wonder Woman, but she really wouldn't work as Wonder Woman for me because I am used to the character as being white. In fact...I think Wonder Woman *should* be white."
Then we have it out on the table and we can look at it and debate this.
Sometimes I try to look at it from the perspective of the actors & actresses themselves, being told by agents and studios that they are only "right" for certain types of roles. The narrow window of good parts, of roles as leading men and women. That must be frustrating as hell.
Oh, and I think another point is- a set of people will object to anything. Even if they can back their objections up with some decent or even valid arguments. A lot of fans were upset when Toby Maguire was cast as Peter Parker. They had some good reasons, I'm sure. One thing is, he looks nothing like Peter Parker drawn by Steve Ditko, John Romita, Todd McFarlane or... anyone.
ReplyDeleteBut like Maguire or not, for most of the world- a number of people far exceeding the number of people who actually read the comics- Spider-Man looks just like Toby Maguire now. A comic book panel of Peter Parker out of costume and minus any Spidey context wouldn't ring a bell.
That's why I disagree with all these "the character is traditionally this or that" and the "not enough time has passed since her inception" arguments. Most moviegoers are not going to care about Wonder Woman's Greek heritage. They're only going to want to see an entertaining movie. And ultimately, it's movie Wonder Woman, not comic book Wonder Woman anyway.
I guess what they need to do is make a statue, entreat the Greek gods to bring it to life, get her to play the role and then comic fans will be happy.
Except for the Megan Fox partisans.
Hey, I really don't know WHO would make the perfect Wonder Woman. I haven't been hugely impressed with any of the names or faces rumor has attached to the movie. But I'm not going to object to someone just because she doesn't look exactly like she stepped off a Brian Bolland cover or an Adam Hughes pin-up.
It's kind of funny to me that Samuel L. Jackson gets the nod as Fury simply because the Ultimates based their Fury on him. You could set a precedent in panel and suddenly it's totally okay. All fannish objections are met and vetted.
That just seems arbitrary to me. Movie Fury is no more the Ultimates Fury than he is the Howlin' Commandos Fury. He's just another iteration of the basic idea of Nick Fury and would still be that even without the Ultimates.
Halle Berry failed as Catwoman because her movie stunk. NO ONE could've saved that flick. And it didn't stink because it wasn't true to comic text, its stinkitude came from a multiple of non-comics related factors. The story, the script, the costume, the acting... If it had been called Feline Fury with no Catwoman connection, it still would've stunk.
And I don't think Valerie's particularly saying you're a bigot or a racist if you don't want Gina Torres as Wonder Woman. Just that you could stand to challenge your own preconceived notions of what the character is, what the essence of the character is and who could best embody that in a film version.
ReplyDeleteUnderstand the film version is going to differ from the comic regardless. All other things being equal, why not cast a person of color in any given role?
Why be locked into the mindset that only your own imagining of the character is correct? Your opinions are valid, yeah, but so are those of Torres supporters, or those who don't object to an Asian Batman.
And it's not like suddenly 70 years of comic history would be erased, or someone would go back and redraw and recolor every issue. Eventually, another movie will be made with someone else as that character. And a different group will be up in arms that time.
I think you could easily have an African-American woman play WW without upsetting either the character's backstory or her licensed image. And you wouldn't have to play up that she is black either. Just like they didn't have to play up that Will Smith was black in I Robot. Getting a good actress who can sell to the audience that she *is* Wonder Woman is much more important than the actress's ethnicity. And even more important is having a really good story/script and a director who "gets" the concept.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, the Shakespeare argument is a good one. I would say that adapting comics is different than a play due to the fact that comics are already visual, so that the audience going into a Wonder Woman or Superman (or Jesus, I guess) movie already has an idea of what that character should look like in their head. But everyone can have a different idea of what Hamlet or MacBeth looks like. So a good actor can make the audience believe that they are MacBeth no matter who they are. But even the best actor of color will have to struggle against the iconic image of white Batman that exists in the audience's mind.
ReplyDeleteBut aside from the iconic quality of choosing an actor that looks exactly like a drawing, there's no reason an actor of color couldn't portray a traditionally white super hero.... unless you wanted to argue that super hero comics aren't as established as something Shakespeare. So because Batman is still a young, liscensed character you can't get away with "breaking" the icon as much as you could with Shakespeare. I mean, anyone who wants to could go out and cast their own version of Hamlet, but if they tried to make their own Batman movie they'd be sued into oblivion. So maybe we need to wait a few centuries for them to enter the public domain before we can see anything like the kind of casting freedom we do in Shakespeare without fan outrage.
Personally, the only one I'd care about would be Superman. He's the only one who would really "need" to be white, if only for the "insider feeling like an outsider" aspect someone else mentioned. Anyone else is fair game if the actor is good enough (having good writers and directors helps too, but thats true for any actor, regardless of ethnicity).
OH MAN, Gina Torres could totally do it. Now she's a fantastic actress who'd have the acting chops AND the physique.
ReplyDeleteWhom can I pay off/whack/offer favors to in order to get Gina Torres as Wonder Woman? Great idea!
ReplyDeleteLynda Carter worked well in the role, from an ethnicity point of view, because WW was, in the 40's especially where Season 1 was set, was an "all-American" woman of greek/Mediterranean descent.
ReplyDeleteLynda being Mexican/Irish herself, which of course include Spaniards from the Mexican side, has the Mediterranean descent if you go back to the Spanish roots, or darn close to it. So she fit the part perfectly.
I am a HUGE Alias fan, and I love Anna Espinoza as much as anyone, but as kick-ass as she is, she's not right for a character as iconic as Diana. You might as well put some blonde in the role and totally change the costume while you're at it if you go that route.
Wait, they already tried that. And it worked out swimmingly didn't it?
Didn't it? (crickets chirpping)
Wow. I'm surprised how many people are supporting the idea of Gina Torres playing Wonder Woman.
ReplyDeleteIs this some Firefly fanboy virus, or am I just the only person who has a very clear idea of what Wonder Woman should look like?
Especially since good design is the character's only merit.
To make a good Wonder Woman movie, you'd have to completely redo her origin, and after ditching the character design, what will be left of the original? This idea seems like a big "F you" to the creators.
What next, a white Luke Cage?
What exactly would be the point of doing that?
I was really peeved to hear that the extraordinarily talented Johnny Depp is cast as Tonto. I'm sorry. I know he's got the talent and I know how makeup and wigs can transform a person but I think that there's got to be a line between "draw" for money's sake and finding someone appropriate. I would love Gina Torres as WW over Beyonce. As a fan, I wouldn't have a problem with the casting in that case. But I know Hollywood and they'll look for cheesecake quality first.
ReplyDeleteWhat have you done, Valerie!?!?! EVERYONE'S FIGHTING! J/K, Heh.
ReplyDeleteI think everyone's opinion is valid. Some care, and some don't on whether it's a big deal whether Wonder Woman "looks" like Wonder Woman. And, also, I think that everyone, even those who are optimistic, are reading these with a cynical tone to the text. Everyone in the world is naturally cynical, we look for the worst in others by nature. But, I doubt anyone is really being bigoted when they object to having a black Wonder Woman.
I just like to see my characters look like the characters in the books I read. I hate this think-like-me criticism. I haven't heard anything racist or anything bigot-minded by anyone who has posted. So, why is it a big deal that we want the character to look like she's white, like she has been portrayed for so very long, rather than black. If you wanna throw a race-argument, how about those who are Greek. Earlier arguments are that white people played native americans and africans in old, archaically concepted films. Well, wouldn't Greek be like, "What was wrong with her being/looking Greek?" Of course, no one thinks racism when it's like that, because only white people can be racist...cough. (Yes. That was a whole lotta sarcasm.)
I honestly wish Torres the best if she gets the part. And, I really believe we live in an overly sensitive society. Yes, there are horribly hate-filled people instilled with an astonishing amount of ignorance, but I think majority of us are wisdomic and have much empathy. I just thought I'd throw those wrenches into the cogs of some peoples' thought-process. Hopefully, the wrenches stick in there or don't break too quickly.
It's exciting to see all the discussion on this entry, and most of all, it's nice to see that it looks like a well-behaved debate. It wouldn't take much for someone to take it down a road less civil.
ReplyDeleteThe point about Captain America's race being an element of the character is actually a decent point. I don't know that I'd be totally opposed to a person other than a white man in the role, but I think Cap's race (if a movie sticks with the WWII origin) plays an important part in who he is. I think he kind of became representative of the U.S. in that time period... and for better or worse, representative of white America during that time. There's a college essay just begging to be written on that one. I think it would be interesting to throw a curve ball into the works with a black super-soldier from that time period in addition to Cap, though, because it would not surprise me to see the U.S. of that time purposefully experimenting on blacks first. The Tuskegee experiment, which is still a black eye for the military, comes to mind. I could see this as a possibly origin for a more believable sidekick for Cap, instead of a teen-aged Bucky in WWII.
With Wonder Woman, I'd worry more about the script than anything else (including who gets cast in the role). Her origin and the very nature of the character makes it all too easy to screw up a script. How does one translate a character such as her into the everyday world and keep it from turning into a dull, preachy commentary on sexual equality or worse... an unintentional comedy (the aforementioned "Catwoman" movie comes to mind)?
I've worshipped Gina Torres for years. The woman can act her ass off. She would do well in the role of Wonder Woman.
ReplyDeleteBeyonce is a crap actor. She would suck as Wonder Woman. She does not have the presence and gravitas to pull it off like Gina Torres does.
Russell Wong can play anything! He's soooo dreamy!!
ReplyDeleteI'm definitely of two minds about it.
ReplyDeleteYou couldn't have a non-white play Tom Sawyer or Sherlock Holmes. Doing so would create story problems that a movie would either have to deal with or ignore and both would interrupt the story.
Could you have a white guy play Steel? Probably.
Could you have a non-white guy play Wally West? Sure, but you'd have to make sure the casting of his aunt Iris matches up. Other than that, I'd be okay, even as a big Wally West fan.
But the Trinity? They *are* icons that are set visually in people's minds. Wonder Woman might be the easiest one to go non-white as long as the Amazons reflected her non-white status in some way, either looking similar or complete mixed casting.
I don't think comparing it to the presidency works. Each President is a new figure. Not wanting a non-white as president just because they aren't white actually is bigotry. Wanting Wonder Woman to look the way she has looked since her creation isn't and stands much closer to consistency. It's actually one character over the course of 67 years. Obama will be the 13th president since 1941.
Michael said...
ReplyDelete(Batman kinda has to be white, because, really, no one is going to believe a multi-ethnic or minority kid inheriting a fortune when his rich folks buy it. We're not quite there yet.
Yeah because rich people are all white.... are you serious with this? you know there are plenty of african american millionaires? there are even some that own billion dollar companies, and lets ignore that some of the richest people in the world are middle eastern.
Oh sorry, you said no one is going to believe that a black person could be rich... why bother trying to fight a stereotype right?
Bill, the Wildcat
ReplyDeleteAre you aware of Truth? In the Marvel U. it has been established that the first recipient of the Supersoldier serum was black because they did test it on a black soldier first. His son or grandson is the modern Young Avenger, Patriot.
So as a person of multiple ethnicities, I'm am reading this and I don't think I agree with many of the comments on here.
ReplyDeleteWhat's wrong with Wonder Woman and Batman looking Caucasian? Sit and think for a second. Asian Batman. Why? What purpose would it serve for him to be played by an Asian with typical Asian features?
Would I feel better and pump my fists if I saw Puerto Rican Wolverine?
How about we make the Falcon a Norwegian woman?
Why not make Captain American a Hawaiian?
Batman an Arab?
Let’s make white Swiss Luke Cage?
Korean Reed Richards and Black Sue Storm?
The characters are already set. There is no need to change them. At all. There are plenty of ethnic characters and more and more are being created. I guarantee you that I won’t “feel good” about any changes in the characters race. They are what they are and should be left to be as such unless it makes sense for a change. Just because I can make a movie or TV show or comic where Kato from the Green Hornet can be a black woman, or Dolemite can be a white man, should I?
Can Peter Parker be middle eastern? Sure.
But why does he need to be? Just because?
Can’t there be a middle eastern superhero who is not Peter Parker?
What if we take black characters and turn them into people of Slavic descent?
What if we take white characters and turn them black?
What if we take Chinese characters and turn them Japanese?
Is it ok for the characters to remain close to what they were created as, or due to the fact that we voted in a bi-racial president, now race no longer matters one iota nor does it serve a purpose in identifying who people are and where their roots lie?
If it ain’t broke, don’t try and fix it.
evangeline lily is totally wonder woman.
ReplyDeleteWhat's wrong with Wonder Woman and Batman looking Caucasian? Sit and think for a second. Asian Batman. Why? What purpose would it serve for him to be played by an Asian with typical Asian features?
ReplyDeleteMister Grimm: I don't think anyone has said that there's something wrong with those characters looking Caucasian. The point is that the characters aren't necessarily defined by their ethnicity.
As others have noted, Amazon society has been represented as being about women, not about white women, despite being founded by Greek women. Batman's origin wouldn't have to change at all to be played by an Asian, black or Hispanic. Superman is a friggin' alien!
The idea here is that ruling people out for movie roles because of their ethnicity, when said ethnicity has little or nothing at all to do with the character, is probably a bad idea. This isn't a question of political correctness, either; it's a question of finding the best possible person to play a particular part. I don't believe that Megan Fox (for example) could reasonably be called "the best possible person" to play Wonder Woman...
When John Barrowman was rumored to play Captain America, people threw huge fits. Then again, the internet is usually not the place for intense discussion. Then again - crazies.
ReplyDeleteI think they said it best in Tropic Thunder.
Valerie D'Orazio said...
ReplyDeleteWell, some people believe that since the president has been played by a white guy for the last 300+ years...
I really hope that's a typo.
You know, apropos of nothing, I can picture an Asian or Hispanic Batman but I can't picture a freckled Batman or a blonde Batman. Its not JUST race that gets in the way of picturing an actor or actress in a role. in fact, I'm going to throw something out there, in terms of surface appearances, I think hair color and texture is a LOT more important for an adaption to get right than race is.
ReplyDeleteI am all for Gina Torres as Wonder Woman.
ReplyDeleteBeyonce or Megan Fox... yikes. Megan Fox is too hollow, and Beyonce just can not act. Dream Girls was practically constructed to be her career breakout and get her an Oscar, and she got out shined by the American Idol girl.
But as to the larger question of icons and multiracial casting... I think you're right.
except for Superman... because Superman is not timeless.
Batman's character is about tragedy and madness. Wonder Woman is about Feminine Strength. These ideas have existed in some shape or form in every single culture and time.
Superman is specifically centered on the early to mid twentieth century American immigrant experience. He's a Super-powered individual who uses his power for "right." But what's right changes drastically through time and cultures. Superman learned "right" from a Norman Rockwell rural Kansas. He is the embodiment of those values he was taught.
If superman lands in Rural Finland in the 800's... wouldn't he become a conquerer? Wasn't that what was right in that time and culture? If he landed in India in the 1100's, wouldn't he have a firm belief in the caste system?
At which point... he's not the Superman we know.
So if Superman is defined by Norman Rockwell values... he kind of needs to grow up somewhere between the 1930's up to when Kennedy was shot. Given rural America in that time... wouldn't his views and experience be completely different if he were non-white? If he were black in rural Kansas in the 50's... his views would be completely different.
and really in this case it's more about the flaws and limitations of Superman as a character more than the idea of multiracial casting in general.
jmy
ReplyDeleteA minor point, Isaiah Bradley was not tested on before Steve Rogers. He was a test subject in a project to recreate the results they had with Rogers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Bradley#Captain_America_timeline
As a half-minority, half-white person, I agree that talented actors should get a shot.
ReplyDeleteIf they make sense contextually.
A great example is Will Smith, in two movies - Men in Black and Wild Wild West.
Men in Black was based on a Malibu comic, with a blond character originally offered to Woody Harrelson. This became Will Smith, and Will Smith became J with little to no problem. The character was easy to make that transition.
Now Wild, Wild West on the other hand, the screenwriters completely re-invented Jim West in order to make his ethnicity work. It was unnecessary and cumbersome in its storytelling - "how did a black man become a spy for the Union?"
Did it need to be explained?
Probably not, it wasn't that cranial a film. Add to that the fact that the movie was marketed with Will Smith's name all over it, so it's likely that the audience came to the theatre ALREADY buying Will Smith as a cowboy spy. We didn't need to know HOW, it didn't add to the story.
I'd say a big factor comes down to how easy a role it is to cast. Id argue that in terms of meeting the comic book appearance of the character Wonder Woman's a harded role to cast than Batman, Superman or Robin, so the `best actor' becomes a bigger deciding factor than `the look'. I mean there are plenty of actor's who look enough like Batman that you can chose from them without even an admitedly great actor like Russell Wong being such an overwhelming tallent for the part that you'd have to chose him. I mean, MC Duncan doesn't look like Kingpin, except that he's big, but he is so big and has the right air of authority that he overshaddowed any other (white) contenders for the role. But, like Wonder Woman, the original `Kingpin look' is a lot harder to come by. Anyways,
ReplyDelete1. I'd say yes, she's great actress and stands head and shoulders above the other candidates in that 1st important category. Then, the Amazon's were fictional even in ancient Greece; so they can look however an artist/casting agent wants them to look.
2. Maybe; there are rich non-white Americans, but the wayne's aren't just `rich' they're `old money' which is a different thing, so, it'd be trickier to work (this is where my opening paragraph comes into play)
3. Again they're are enough actors who look like Dick, Jay or Tim that you may as well go with one of them... especially since (I believe that) that these three characters though adopted look like they could be Bruce's actual children- or his own younger self-(and each other's brothers) is an important part of the Batman/Robin dynamic. Then again, I wouldn't have any problem with a new Robin character in the comics being black, or a girl (for instance) and a movie could easily have a `Robin' character that wasn't Dick, Jay or Tim, but some new poor orphan.
4. Samual L. Jackson is the best person for any role. Heck, he could play Wonder Woman and Robin the same movie and Id be fine with it.
5. No. But that has nothing to do with her ethnicity.
6. Superman? he sure did! Clark Kent? No, not so much. Y'know, probably would have been a better Captain Marvel.
Anyways, the whole `timeless' thing in regards to comparing comics to the Bible or shakespeare... comics are ongoing and still current, so automatically `less timeless'.
If Shakespeare was sudenly re-incarnated and wrote a new play, Id cast specifically to his wishes. And Othello the character should at least always be a different race (or significant appearance) to the other characters in the production (though this wouldnt necessarily mean the actors were of specific race. Makeup!)
Now you're on to something. Katharine Hepburn as Wonder Woman.
ReplyDeleteOf course, Gina Torres is also a fine choice, to play any role.
Mister Grimm said it best.
ReplyDeleteTo have change a well known white character's race so that black actors can play them is an insult to the underrated and not as
popular black comic book characters that CAN have a chance to reach a more mainstream audience.
Storm from X-Men's origin is from Africa, and so is Vixen's. These are some of the very few black female comic book characters out there. How would you feel if they had a white actress play that part and just changed everything that is essential about that character, especially when so little work black actresses can find? Or worse, put her in blackface?
By the way, people keep bringing Halle Berry up. Halle Berry wasn't playing Selina Kyle Catwoman, that much was obvious, when her character is named Patience Phillips and was told she was apart of a 'long line of cat women' with various images of women in cat costumes shown in photographs. Or perhaps no one saw the movie and just assumed.
Yes Dean Cain is part Japanese (and he doesn't look completely white) but he mostly played Clark Kent more than Superman.