A Newsarama commenter complains about the Spanish-language issue of Blue Beetle:
"I thought it was the first ever comic that bordered on racism. DC: Now forcing its readers to read Spanish."
I know, DC -- you thought you were doing something right, sort of expanding your scope a bit. But in reality -- you are forcing your readers to read Spanish!
The fact is, Latinos are one of the fastest-growing populations in the United States. DC and Marvel both should be putting out some Spanish-language comics -- not just translations of their existing comics, but comics specifically for that growing population. And not just for that population -- but for the English-speaking young people who could use some early introduction to Spanish! If the Dora the Explorer people can do it and have tons of both Spanish-speaking and non-Spanish-speaking fans, surely comic companies can do it.
"Why am I a bigot? Because I want foreign people coming to an English speaking country to learn, I don’t know, ENGLISH???? I assume in your perfect world, everyone will speak Mexican and we’ll all be happy when illegal immigration causes the economy to collapse."
That said, I should point out that despite the overwhelming number of Newsarama commenters who "corrected" Dave, the sad fact is that there are probably a number of people grumbling under their breath about the book. They see this book written in Spanish and consider it threatening, a confirmation of all their xenophobic fears. The world is changing, and it frightens them to death. But this doesn't mean the comic book industry shouldn't change.
The problem for the longest time had been that people like that Newsarama commenter had some level of influence from within these comic companies -- they were afraid of change and social progress. They either blocked that change in their books or presented a lame version of it. Now that things have shifted, we need to keep moving forward and have progress. But, make no mistake -- you will see more angry fans crawl out of the woodwork and complain about it. There will be a backlash -- but it will be one with more bark than bite.
(Waiting for O'Reilly to hold up a copy of Blue Beetle #51 on his show and say: "DC is forcing America to read Spanish!")
Next to nobody is reading Blue Beetle anyway, its a perfectly safe place to try something like this.
ReplyDeleteAlso, there will always be loud complainers and weirdos spouting this kind of thing. Best response I can think of is to support these kinds of projects as much as possible. I haven't read my copy yet, but its a pretty neat idea.
Also v.2: Marvel should do an all French Captain America comic and see what weirdos that draws out :)
My only real issue with the Special Spanish edition is it feels less like DC is being multicultural and more , "Ok what demographic can we exploit for profit next"
ReplyDeleteThen again, I am a cynical bastard.
Sadly, it's nothing new. I mean, that's pretty much the vitriol we read concerning gay characters ("Stop forcing me to acknowledge the existence of gay people!" or "Publisher X has shown a same-sex couple holding hands, whatch out for the ruin of family and society to follow!"), whenever they appear.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you that it comes from that deep-encrusted fear of change, of not knowing what things will be like after they change. And, of course, the easiest, least mind-taxing response, is rage.
I say tough, let the bigots get scared, they cannot stop it, for all their barking (and more than a few bites).
On a completely unrelated note, I put up a drawing in my blog that I'd love to read your opinion about, if you can stop by when you have some time (it's the most recent post).
Best,
J.
id see lou dobbs doing it before oreilly.
ReplyDeleteim honestly torn on this issue being that i live in tx and have made comments that arent always seen as pc.
but i didnt mind the issue. its a spanish speaking character, so it made sense.
now if spiderman was going around speaking spanish it would irritate me, but since jaime is a hispanic character and has family that probably does not speak english, why wouldn't they?
i liked the issue, myself.
this sounds like "why are they putting gays in my comics?"
See, my only complaint about the book is that John Rogers wasn't on it so it wasn't nearly as funny as it usually is. ^_~ However, Jaime's grandmother is made of win.
ReplyDeleteI used to be really proud I could speak so many languages from reading X-Men and New Mutants.
ReplyDelete"unglaublich"
"BOZE MOI!!!"
"tovarisch"
"Ah'hm about to punch someone."
Funny. Spanish comics are big not just in latin america but in other countries, and now because of the latin population (Personally I hate the term latinos, raza, etc..) it's becoming popular there as well.
ReplyDeletei guess all those people at newsarama can do is complain since they can't do what was done to the american indians when the early settlers didn't like them, understand them and wanted their land.
I'm bilingual, born in the states to parents from Puerto Rico, and having lived in both cultures, it's funny how other cultures are open to other things and yet some people in the US, just can't fathom the fact that there are other languages than English and just because people live in the states they have to learn english. What about the majority of asians, indians, germans, and others that live in the states as well and some don't even need to speak english due tot he self sustaining mini countries those before them have formed. (Case in point, Chinatown)
Overall, so what if this person has a problem with it. In the end they'll be swept aside when the new generation of kids come around speaking and reading more than 2 -3 languages.
Alcapurria anyone?
Not to mention the fact that despite the majority of people in the United States speaking English, America is NOT an English-speaking country, at least not in the sense of English being the national language.
ReplyDeleteFor my $0.02, I'm not as up in arms that DC printed a book in Spanish to be sold here in the US. I think it's pretty firmly established that some groups entering the country choose to continue using their native language, and it's pretty foolish to think that you can force that to change. I can hardly fault DC for trying to expand readership to a new demographic.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I *can* fault DC for making the comic more difficult for their base consumer to enjoy. I struggled with some of the Spanish, and managed to hang in there for a few pages... but after that, it was like this:
1) Look at the artwork, figure out page/panel #.
2) Reference English script in the back, look up page/panel #.
It destroyed the flow, and had a noticeable impact on my enjoyment of the story. I'm a fan of Jaime Reyes as a character, but my enjoyment of the comic was constantly interrupted. If DC wants to do things like this in the future, they should also print English language versions of the book.
Wow. That is amazing that someone would have that kind of reaction. No one is forcing anybody to read anything, even.
ReplyDeleteI believe his "how am I a bigot?" speech speaks pretty well for himself, mainly as uneducated as his opinion is.
I love how if one doesn't bother to learn and/or understand another language, that the other language speakers are the dumb ones?
"1) Look at the artwork, figure out page/panel #.
ReplyDelete2) Reference English script in the back, look up page/panel #.
It destroyed the flow, and had a noticeable impact on my enjoyment of the story. "
I have to agree on this point. I would rather have had an insert that I could take out and read along with, or have "subtitles" on the panel. Looking back-and-forth broke my reading flow.
I remember when I was a kid that my mom got one of those "blah blah damn immigrants" speeches from some old guy on the bus. And it wasn't even because she spoke another language. She just had an *accent*. I guess he was frightened by that huge wave of Brazilians flooding into Brooklyn, threatening the American way of life.
ReplyDeleteI think the main problem is in the construction of the book. I agree that you can't expect a reader to flip back and forth and get into the story.
ReplyDeleteThere were some major points for me, Juan and Alejandro when we put together FANTASTIC FOUR: ISLA DE LA MUERTA.
1) If it's going to be a story based in Puerto Rico, it has to be genuine. I was going to put in actual locations and culture. Puerto Ricans expect to feel like their on their island.
So it was essential for me, as the writer, to pull in elements such as the San Sebastian festival and the Chupacabras and the romance of the island itself. There's a panic scene that's loaded with PR folklore.
Which, after all that, we've let the readers know that we weren't just going to show up and piss all over their heritage with stereotypes.
There's a scene in this book that has resulted in TONS of positive emails from Puerto Ricans here and in the states.
Upon discovering where Ben is, Johnny tells Reed, "You tell me that all this time he's been laying on the beach, drinking beer and eating tacos??"
To which an annoyed Reed responds, "He'd be eating a taco... if he were in MEXICO."
They adore that scene and to be honest, I never thought it would go over that big.
2) Artistically, I needed someone who not only had knowledge of the island, but enough to be able to draw the El Morro forte, or the Yunque Rain Forest, or the San Juan streets and buildings.
People would have to be wearing clothing typical on the island. One sombrero or coconut bra and we've lost the audience who we're targeting.
Juan nailed everything. When Ben is standing in front of the large totem, you can look behind it and see the art school in the distance. He researched everything and it showed in the process.
2) Just before we went to print, Alejandro and I were talking about how exciting the book was, when we both agreed how it sucked that a kid in Puerto Rico wouldn't be able to enjoy the story in English, even though it took place on his island.
So, Alejandro went to the bosses and asked if he did all the translation work, could we print this in Spanish also. And they just agreed to it.
There was no plan to do the Spanish book at first. But when the idea was brought up, they went nuts with it.
The twin release did a number of things. It became the first time a comic book had been released in a bilingual manner (we had no idea)... which gave us huge... and I mean HUGE... press.
It made it unique.. which made it collectable. And we ALL know how we loves the collectables.
And it gave bigots like that Dave guy no ammunition to blasts his moronic statements. Nothing was being "shoved down" anyone's throats. And it gave both parties an experience that was solely theirs.
So, I think for Blue Beetle, they should've done a bilingual release. I think that's the design flaw.
As far as Dave...feh. They'll always be there, terrified that the world quit being 1950 a very long time ago. If they feel more threatened... cool with me. It's called a melting pot for a reason.
Just my opinion.
Back in the day, when I first really got into comics, I had access to the huge collection my college had. This gave me the opportunity to read decades worth of comics in a sitting. There were a lot of social movements that were going on for a while until the publishers were forced to acknowledge them. There were jarring moments when, across the board, from one issue to the next, OMG! There are black characters. or OMG! We're allowed to say the word "feminism" now. Or a little later, OMG! Gay people exist. Change never seemed to happen slowly, but in jumps as editorial policy changed. This feels like another one of those jumps.
ReplyDeleteI'm keeping my eye on how this particular issue does, both critically and on the newsstands. I've been working on a story set in the Tijuana/San Diego region for about a year now. And part of the process has been developing a bilingual script, with "subtitles" to be part of the panels.
ReplyDeleteWhen I brought this up to my writers' group, one guy said, "Your bilingual readers won't care, and your non Spanish-speakers will be turned off." Wanted to punch the guy, I swear.
I believe in Tom Beland! That was poetry!
ReplyDeleteInteresting that I've read no major news or blog posts complaining about how Superman comics occasionally force their audience to read Kryptonian. I mean, Superman, Supergirl and Batman have all occasionally spoken the long-dead language as a way to keep their conversations secrets and I don't remember hearing anyone complain "Dammit, why am I a bigot? I know Clark's an immigrant but he should've learned AMERICAN by now! I bet in your perfect world, everyone will speak Kryptonese and we can all be happy as we let illegal aliens such as Starfire, Captain Mar-Vell, Superman, the Silver Surfer and most of the Green Lantern Corps ruin our economy! I'm looking at you, Ch'p!"
ReplyDeleteI personally think it's great that Blue Beetle actually uses Spanish dialog in a way that is natural and realistic, as opposed to certain comics in the 80s where some Hispanic characters would say or think something in Spanish as an exclamation and then immediately translate it for clarity's sake, even if there was no one else in the room with them. But then, I'm Irish-Latino, so I guess I'm biased and should just shut up before DC starts doing Gaelic comics too and then we're all screwed. :-P
I'd be a little more convinced if DC hadn't been peddling some real "half-remembered from high-school" Spanish elsewhere (a recent Superman comic where Superman is getting beaten up by multiple males bearing the tagline "MUCHA luchadores" or even Blue Beetle having a sign saying "se habla ESPAGNOL"). Ah, I'm being too cynical, it was a lark.
ReplyDeleteI'll be honest. I used to *hate* when I read spanish in american comics because 90% of the time is absolutely wrong. It's not even 'spanglish', it's more like if someone had passed some english words through babelfish. Thank god it's gotten better in the years. On the other hand... well, I can't help but agree with Nick. It feels a lot like 'hey, Latin people are fashionable right now, let's have a latin american hero'.
ReplyDeleteYou mean there was reactionary vitriol on Newsarama? I don't believe it. They're normally such a calm and reasonable group of people.
ReplyDeleteSome people are just morons. 'Nuff said.
ReplyDeleteAll the good points have already been stated. I'll just echo that my only problem with the book was the flow as well.
When I first flipped through it I thought maybe DC printed the story twice with a translated version in back, ala the afformentioned FF one-shot (whose Spanish translation I WANTED but my damn shop didn't order...bastards). One reason I liked the idea was because I've been dying to learn some Spanish but can't get any of my friends to take time to actually TEACH me (although I have picked up some phrases beyond curses thanks to this one girl) and being able to read the book and the translation could help that. Hell, comics taught me to spell, why can't they teach me another language?
There's another tangent on the thread: Spanish is fine, but the manner of Spanish being spoken is important, too.
ReplyDeleteSpanish spoken in Spain is different from Spanish spoken in Mexico. And there's accompanying dialect differences inside Mexico, as well. My biggest complaint about Maya and Alexandro in Heroes last year was that all of their Spanish dialogue sounded like it'd been written by somebody on a telenovela.
What? How dare DC ask people to learn something beyond that which they already know! To ask them to stop being ignorant!
ReplyDeleteYou know, I've been waiting practically forever for any mainstream comic to actually have foreign-language speaking characters speak their language, rather than rely on the "greater-than/less-than sign" bracket method popularized years ago in Uncanny X-Men.
Or rather than just have them drop a word or two in their language- "Tovarisch," or "Unglaublich!" or whatever... also popularized in Uncanny X-Men.
It's a crazy world where fringe politics are so out of hand that VERACITY or VERISIMILITUDE in a comic is now seen as an attack, rather than something to be praised.
Yeah, I do think immigrants to the U.S. should make an attempt to learn English. It'll make life more convenient for them and it is what the majority speak. I live in Japan, so I'm learning Japanese for those reasons and out of courtesy.
But...what I think is truly shameful, what truly embarrasses me for my country is that so many English-speaking Americans refuse to learn second languages, even just out of curiosity for other self-enrichment process. Hell, a lot of the supposedly native English speakers are barely functionally literate themselves.
They certainly don't read, and I'm sorry but a literary diet consisting mainly of DC or Marvel comics doesn't count.
Print on, DC. Spanish, Japanese, Swahili, French, whatever!
Maybe they should find a way to force people to read a second language. Then maybe they wouldn't be so stupid.
Wow. I wasn't expecting an actual response to what I said, but here it comes from an arch feminist who gets raged up every time a female superhero is portrayed in anything but a positive light? Shocking.
ReplyDeleteMy name is Dave, and I'm the guy who commented on the Newsarama Blog. Which, I guess was my first mistake. You're all for free speech as long as it's the "correct" one. One of the reasons I'm not linking to my own blog is because it heavily features my own political opinions. That's essentially what my problem was - and the discussion was sidetracked - I believe that forcing readers to read a foreign language comic is tantamount to racism. Thats it. The discussion about illegal immigration was largely pointless to the actual point - DC had no right to foist a foreign language comic onto an English speaking public. Just this morning I rang my own local store - Forbidden Planet, here in Dublin Ireland - and guess what - the issue has been returned by some readers, who were unhappy at getting something that wasn't written in English - there's no legal requirement to learn Spanish here and most of choose French or German in school. So, unless you;e going to charge the entire Irish comic fandom population of racism - do any of you accept that DC could have, at the very least, given the OPTION of having the issue written in the same language as the previous 25 issues?
I'm also very disapointed in Tom Beland's words, especially considering that I considered myself a fan of his work. I repeatedly stated on the Newsarama blog that I felt publishing two seperate editions was the way to go, but thats been ignored.
I'll try and respond to a few people's comments politely
, but given the political skew of this blog, I doubt that will happen.
>>The fact is, Latinos are one of the fastest-growing populations in the United States.
Ho much of that is from illegal immigration?
>>States. DC and Marvel both should be putting out some Spanish-language comics
Absolutely. But keep the Spanish language comics, in the Spanish language areas.
>>The problem for the longest time had been that people like that Newsarama commenter had some level of influence from within these comic companies -- they were afraid of change and social progress
Wow. Total ignorance, Miss. As pointed out on the Newsarama blog - many, many comics have led the way in opening young people's eyes towards the wider world, such as the X-Men featuring, at the time, "enemies", such as a Russian. The difference is - Marvel said, here's a hero who's Russian. DC have simply said "Here's the book in Spanish"
>>(Waiting for O'Reilly to hold up a copy of Blue Beetle #51 on his show and say: "DC is forcing America to read Spanish!")
A typical response from someone like you, I guess. I happen to like Bill O'Reilly. I wish there was Irish journalists who stood up for social issues the way he does. We do get Fox News over here, you know. I'm lucky enough to be working in the Irish media myself - albeit in a very small part of it.
--Other commentators
>> Next to nobody is reading Blue Beetle anyway, its a perfectly safe place to try something like this.
No it's not. Its actually the worst place to do it. If the book sells New Avengers numbers, fantastic - you know have an entire generation of immigrant kids to exploit. If it fails, and I'm eager to see the sales figures on this one - you'll have pushed the book further to cancellation. A far better option would have been to do it as an issue of Brave And The Bold, and have half the issue in Spanish, with an English speaker trying but failing to communicate. Guy Gardner would have been perfect. By the way - that was my singular biggest problem with the issue as a storytelling device - Jai Nitz wrote the American girl as a hick who not once tried to communicate with anyone around her.
>> My only real issue with the Special Spanish edition is it feels less like DC is being multicultural and more , "Ok what demographic can we exploit for profit next"
No, you're probably on the right track - given that DC has relentless killed off long time heroes and worthlessly shoved minorities into their roles for no real reason.
>>Sadly, it's nothing new. I mean, that's pretty much the vitriol we read concerning gay characters ("Stop forcing me to acknowledge the existence of gay people!" or "Publisher X has shown a same-sex couple holding hands, whatch out for the ruin of family and society to follow!"), whenever they appear.
You would be probably be surprised to know I have taken more than one creator to task given their views on homosexual rights. I have no problems with gays in comics.
Furthermore - I have no problem with ANY RIGHTS being discussed in comics - but not in the ham fisted way DC dumped this issue of Blue Beetle on the audience
>>For my $0.02, I'm not as up in arms that DC printed a book in Spanish to be sold here in the US. I think it's pretty firmly established that some groups entering the country choose to continue using their native language, and it's pretty foolish to think that you can force that to change
And yet, in Australia - immigrants are encouraged to learn English to better intergrate with the society around them.
>>I love how if one doesn't bother to learn and/or understand another language, that the other language speakers are the dumb ones?
As I stated - I have the Irish equivalent on High School French, and passable Spanish, since I have family in Spain - but nowhere near the level needed to understand a dialogue heavy issue such as this one.
Thanks for your time, I guess. Discussion like this will eventually help change issues such as this - but they can't do it at the expense of who made DC successful in the first place
"I believe that forcing readers to read a foreign language comic is tantamount to racism."
ReplyDeleteThanks for participating, Dave.
Thanks for having such a condescendingly funny blog to read! I especially liked the entry where you defended John Byrne - a writer who once stated that "Latino Women who dye their hair blonde look like whores"
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm the racist? Rightttttttt
"I believe that forcing readers to read a foreign language comic is tantamount to racism."
ReplyDeleteI fear for your safety. For a comic shop owner to strap you down, staple your eyelids open, and force you to read a book in a language that's not your own is truly troubling. These malicious tactics must not be tolerated!
Okay, that was a bit snarky, even for me. But honestly, no one is forcing anyone to read anything they don't want to.
ReplyDeleteI have to give you credit, Dave, for putting your opinions out there. They are valid. I don't agree with your view, but that doesn't make it any less valid.
Personally, I think this is a good move on the part of DC and Marvel (saw a Spanish language FF the other day). They recognize the growing diversity of their readership and are responding to their desires.
I don't see how this is a problem for regular readers since it's one book out of countless others that are printed in English. But maybe I'm just missing part of the argument.
I was referring to DC/Aol. I have no problems with most comic store owners, most of whom have enough crap to deal with without a major publisher forcing this crap on them. If DC can afford to sell a glorified advertisement for their summer crossover for fifty cents - they can afford to publish a seperate English andSpanish language edition of this book and give retailers in the English speaking West the CHOICE of which one they want on their shelf
ReplyDelete"I especially liked the entry where you defended John Byrne - a writer who once stated that "Latino Women who dye their hair blonde look like whores""
ReplyDeleteAnd Byrne took his lumps for it, and now you're taking yours.
The world is changing, Dave. You are better served spending your time learning a new language than complaining about a DC Comic in Spanish. Don't be an unchanging person in a changing world, bitching about the way the world *should* be. Open your eyes, read some history books, and accept the flow and development of the human race. In fifty years, English/Western Culture will certainly NOT be the dominant language/culture in the world, not like it once was. It will more likely be South American, Chinese, Japanese, or some form of Arabic -- or an international mix. You can complain, you can write screeds against bilingual comic books, you can join little groups of people who share your opinions, you can protest -- it doesn't change this eventuality.
And O'Reilly can be enjoyable sometimes in an awful spectacle sort of way, but he is really just making a buck off of the beliefs of people like yourself.
Don't be an unchanging person in a changing world, bitching about the way the world *should* be. Open your eyes, read some history books, and accept the flow and development of the human race. In fifty years, English/Western Culture will certainly NOT be the dominant language/culture in the world, not like it once was. It will more likely be South American, Chinese, Japanese, or some form of Arabic -- or an international mix.
ReplyDelete>> It'll most likely be China - a culture I have enormous respect for. Hundreds of Chinese students come to Ireland every year, and they all make an effort to speak English.
Don't dare tell me to read a book - I'm a student of History and English - Hell, your precious country still sees Irish immigrants - and they - unlike the Mexicans, make an effort to assimilate into the culture - they don't force everyone else to accept theirs.
Students learning two languages can only be a positive - but DC haven't exactly given people that choice - have they. That issue is on the shelf, and Dan Dio and Jai Nitz are saying "If you don't speak Spanish - tough shit - we don't rate you as important anymore"
"Hell, your precious country still sees Irish immigrants - and they - unlike the Mexicans, make an effort to assimilate into the culture - they don't force everyone else to accept theirs."
ReplyDelete"That issue is on the shelf, and Dan Dio and Jai Nitz are saying "If you don't speak Spanish - tough shit - we don't rate you as important anymore""
How are Mexicans forcing people?
How is Dan DiDio & Jai Nitz telling people "tough shit?"
The fact that one measly comic in Spanish bothers you -- out of a history of hundreds of thousands of comics published completely in English -- points to you being concerned with a deeper issue. Because the amount of outrage you are expressing here doesn't match what you are outraged at.
Maybe if you would publish a link to your blog, we could read it and and understand your viewpoint better.
Oh for the love of God....I'm not talking about one Spanish Language comic being published - I'm talking about DC, refusing to give fans and retailers the CHOICE wether they wanted it or not. Thats all - THE CHOICE. I guess I lost that when I lost Ted Kord too, huh.
ReplyDeleteHuh, I read mine last night and I found the best way to read it (not knowing Spanish) was to read it the whole way through in Spanish first. Then I read the translated script, then went back and read the comic again with a better understanding of what's going on.
ReplyDeleteAlso: Nobody is forcing anything. Its a fill in issue and a one shot story. If a different language is annoying you can pretty reasonably skip this issue of Blue Beetle.
Dave said..
ReplyDelete"given that DC has relentless killed off long time heroes and worthlessly shoved minorities into their roles for no real reason."
Um. Ray Palmer? Not dead. Ted Kord? Not dead (for now). Vic Sage? Unfortunately dead yet he passed on the mantle to someone he thought worthy. But there is a multi-verse Vic Sage alive somewhere.
And how is having Jaime Reyes, Renee Montoya and Ryan Choi take over as next generation heroes any different than doing the same with Hal Jordan and Barry Allen all those years ago?
And you scream about CHOICE CHOICE CHOICE.
You had a choice. Buyers had a choice. Buy the comic. Don't buy the comic.
But your apparent hatred for Jaime Reyes in the Newsrama thread has to be something deeper than just CHOICE about a comic book.
I think I get it.
You. Dave. You were the other CHOICE.
That day the scarab fell from the sky. It could have gone two ways.
Jaime.
Dave.
Young teenager Jaime who was just minding his own business. With no connection to the Blue Beetles of yore.
Dave, student of English and history and lover of all things Ted Kord.
But Dave was elsewhere that day, weren't you Dave? Perhaps you were out buying comics. All in English of course. Perhaps you were somewhere else.
And when you found out this kid..this Jaime Reyes was the NEW Blue Beetle.
You tried to take the high road. It worked. For a while.
Then this issue came out. Where DC and Jaime used the AWESOME POWER OF THE SPANISH LANGUAGE to hold captive the comic buying world.
You couldn't stand it anymore, could you Dave? You just had to speak out.
It shoulda been you Dave. It shoulda been you.
"I'm also very disapointed in Tom Beland's words, especially considering that I considered myself a fan of his work. I repeatedly stated on the Newsarama blog that I felt publishing two seperate editions was the way to go, but thats been ignored."
ReplyDeleteI have to say, David, that anyone who claims about being a fan of my work should also know that the central idea of TSSTG is diversity and accepting each other's differences. And how those differences can actually enhance our lives.
So when someone like you claims to enjoy my work, centered around diversity, yet has such a distain for the Latino culture, it disappoints me more.
I'd challenge you to open a current issue of PREVIEWS and take a count of how many books are shipping that month.
Then take a look at how many bilingual comics are shipping in that group. Because I'm only aware of these two books this calendar year.... so how is that shoving anything under anyone's throat? One book? It's a grain of sand in the desert.
My criticism has nothing to do with the use of Spanish in a book. I applaud DC for just giving it a try, regardless of the result. But I never saw this idea as them shoving Spanish down anyone's throat.
Just expand your horizons a bit. That's all anyone's taking to task with you.
This is nothing new for the current incarnation of Blue Beetle. The characters have been dropping Spanish phrases in the comic since this series began. This issue just happened to have more Spanish than most. I enjoyed it because it turns out I remember a lot more Spanish from college than I thought I did.
ReplyDeleteThis is like when people complain about there being a Spanish language section at Barnes and Noble. It's one shelf out of a thousand in the store, but apparently that's how these evil immigrants start. I really long for a day when people own up to the fact that the people in power will always be in power and will always exploit the people at the bottom as long as we're dumb enough to blame immigrants for our problems instead of the people who are wasting our taxes and pandering to corporate and special interest instead of the will of the people.
lostinube, you just kinda became my hero. Just a little bit.
ReplyDeleteDave, I really just don't understand the anger. If you said you were annoyed, I'd understand. But you talk about not being given a choice on a filler issue. You know what? DC NEVER gives us a choice. Nor does Marvel. Nor does any storyteller other than CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE. That's what gives us the fun drama and suprise of a fictional tale. You are given the story they wrote, in the way they wrote it and that's it, for better or worse. I have never been able to choose which jokes Spider-Man threw at J. Jonah Jameson or which villains Superman would fight that month or whether or not Batman would be operating a case on his own or with Robin at his side. Surely you realize this too (unless you were granted magical comic books which have let you choose the storylines, plots and dialog until now, in which case, who is your dealer?).
And I find your complaint about minorities being shoved into the roles of DC heroes very alarming. Funny, I never looked at Jaime as the "Latino Blue Beetle." I just thoguht of him as the kid who was now Blue Beetle. Same with Montoya and the Question. I'm now wondering why you weren't equally enraged about Wally West being the new "ginger Flash" or Kyle Rayner as the new "Irish Green Lantern." Come to think of it, there have been a few issues here and there where Kyle spoke a few words of Gaelic to his mother, who answered back in Gaelic. Were you upset that there was no immediate translation for that too? And what about when Superman and Supergirl spoke in Kryptonian? Did you smash the television when the Firefly cast occasionally insulted each other in Chinese?
Other languages are a part of the world, especially in places like the U.S. where just about everyone is or is descended from an immigrant. If you're annoyed by a comic you have to translate, I understand, but why turn this into hatred? Why explode against so many others such as Val, Tom Beland and DC in general? What does this anger accomplish other than fueling more anger for its own sake?
Just my two cents.
Dave, if your issue is with DC, you make it sound a lot as if it is with Mexican people, who, in case you've forgotten, have nothing to do with the fact that the issue is in spanish (Unless, of course, we're guilty for the sake of existing). You paint every single spanish-speaking american as an ilegal immigrant, as ignorant people who don't care about learning anything new, and so on. And while I don't read Blue Beetle, I know that Jaime is not illegaly in America, that he can speak english fluently, and that the only reason why the issue is completely in spanish is because it's centered in his family and friends, who all speak spanish. Do you want immigrants to speak english in the safety of their own homes? I'm Mexican. I speak english fluently (In fact, at times I slip to English while talking with my friends here in Mexico). But when I'm in the states, and I meet someone who speaks spanish? We usually switch to spanish. It has nothing to do with not wanting to speak English, and all to do with our national identity. I bet that if you were to live legally in any spanish speaking country you would learn perfet spanish, but when presented with the oportunity to speak english, you would do so.
ReplyDelete(Also, you have a choice. Don't buy the comic. Easy as that.)
I'd love if O'Riley did that. It would get the comic more exposure which would hopefully lead to more readers which the series desperately needs.
ReplyDeleteThe Spanish issue was annoying because I had to flip back to the back over and over where the translation was, but it was only one issue. If they made every issue from then on Spanish, yeah I'd have to drop it because I don't know Spanish.
I probably would have been more annoyed had I not known it was going to be in Spanish ahead of time, so maybe that's what happened to the annoyed newsarama poster.
Just to toss another $0.02 into the ring (grand total $0.04), for all those talking about exercising choice as to whether or not to BUY the comic, that choice isn't always there.
ReplyDeleteMy local comic shoppe's subscription policy pretty much states that if you're subscribed to a book, then you've bought it... unless you drop the book by the preceding Sunday at the very earliest. I was completely unaware of the nature of this issue, or I might have dropped it. I subscribed to the book as I was enjoying Rodgers' run quite possibly beyond legal limits, and wanted to at least check out the next story arc.
If I'd had a chance to review the book before deciding to purchase, I would have put it back on the shelf. Alas, by the time I walked into the comic shop, my purchase was preordained.
However, I realize this is an issue between me and ye olde local comic shoppe, and is certainly beyond DC's ability to correct.
Yeah I've on to more important things now. Its funny, a friend was good enough to pick up my comics, and I was reading Mighty Avengers, and it struck me just how much better Marvel is at introducing new characters - and not doing it in a sledgehammer subtle way like DC does.
ReplyDeleteAs I've previously stated - the next time Blue Beetle is on the shelf - I'll buy an extra issue of Wolverine,and I'll think of all you guys. Or not
"As I've previously stated - the next time Blue Beetle is on the shelf - I'll buy an extra issue of Wolverine,and I'll think of all you guys. Or not."
ReplyDeleteSo you're going to spend more money on a character some of us do indeed like (myself certainly) and may or may not think of us when you ... wait, I don't get it. Is he insulting us or threatening us or is this a stream of consciousness writing experiment? I like Wolverine and other Marvel characters. I also like Blue Beetle. Are Logan and Jaime supposed to be rivals now? When did that happen?
Kistler am confused. :-P
Dave,
ReplyDeleteI'm terribly sorry you were forced to buy an issue of a comic you don't normally buy because it was printed in a language you don not speak. Or prevented from buying a comic you don't normally buy because it was printed in a language you don't speak. Or forced to complain about a comic you neither buy nor care about because it was printed in a language you don't speak.
These people who are forcing you to do or not do these things should be ashamed of themselves, and I'd tell them so if only I knew what language they didn't speak.
He was forced to buy the book? Sound like DC has a new marketing plan.
ReplyDeleteCAME late for the party....
ReplyDeleteAnyway Im mexican and Live in Mexico , in the city of Veracruz to be exact.
but my comments does not represent my people just me ranting.
I kinda fell offended by those dave comments In newsrama and some from here (In fact I try to avoid read newsrama sometimes comics fans make me sad)
All the comicbook fans in Mexico that I Know or heard read american english superhero comics.
(Yes MEXICANS know how to read english)
And some of them that buy even japanese mangas even if they dont know how to read japanese
I heard a lot of complains about this blue beetle issue from fellow mexicans
That is not real spanish etc.
If Dc or marvel wants to do a spanish comic as movies translations
They should use a neutral spanish because its not the same spanish in Argentina , Mexico or spain and probably the chicanos or latin americans that grew up at Usa have their own slangs
Its not the same
Argentina.- pero que bolotudo de mierda y maricon eres
México.- pero que pinche mierda y puñal eres
Puñal in México means dagger and being gay but in Argentina it only means dagger
See even a simple sentence cand bring confusion
I visit the United States at least once I year , really want to practice my english
But rarely I get the chance to do it because almost everyone there speaks espanish
(mainly texas , san diego, dallas etc)
I feel bad because since Im mexican and I did my webcomic in english instead of spanish ( and it takes place in Mexico)
Why?
Many reasons
All the mexican comicbooks fans I know already read english
And mexicans require to learn english at school to sucess in life
I`ve readers from germany and other parts of europe it wouldnt be possible if my comic
Was in espanish
Cons.-
Usually get typos and grammar mistakes and I`ve also a hard time using english slangs thats why you always need
A native to help you with the writing, even If I know perfect english I would still get a hard time a decent writing and you cant spot mistakes easily in other lenguaje than your own.
I apologize for my grammar but since I wrote this comment at work
There was no time for a decent grammar check
Ps if Dc and Marvel comics should be for everyone dont divide more the demographics, things like the mexican spider girl really sucks,
at least they should get a native or someone that understant us to supervise the projects not just a simple a friend that helped me to do it or a wikipedia search.
They really need to understand traditions and the way we feel and think not just asumptions.
The last thing I want to see if they treat us like we still use sombreros and sleep on the streets.
On a related note, I can't believe my racist high school totally forced me to speak and write Spanish in Spanish class. Or else I'd get an F! Can you believe that?
ReplyDeleteDon't they know that Spanish-speaking people are taking our jobs? And teaching us SPANISH? What is this country coming to if I can't even learn Spanish in English?!?
just a quickie
ReplyDeletehttp://www.comicastle.com/foro/showthread.php?t=5233&page=5
mexican comic forum talking about this issue
in Spanish.
Hrm.
ReplyDeleteIt's always scary to me when someone is this afraid of something different.
Guess I'm just not able to see it from his POV.
Not feeling too bad about it, either.
I'd go with what nick said. We've all known that the direct market comic fanbase (i.e. the bigots threatened by everything who always get trotted out so everyone can sanctimoniously shut them down) is very small. Comic companies are business and go where the cash is. If there's more cash in catering to someone other than the direct market comic fanbase, that's what everyone'll do.
ReplyDeleteSo when did English become the native language for Ireland anyway?
ReplyDeleteUm, Andrew?
ReplyDeleteI'm part of the direct market comic fanbase. I'm guessing a lot of us are..
I know Dave doesn't speak for me, and probably not for the majority of us.
The direct market comic fanbase is pretty diverse, and if we were somehow to speak with one voice, it certainly wouldn't be Dave's.
Are you really calling the entire direct market comic fanbase bigots? I'm hoping I missed your point.
Years ago, a Trek book (I'm pretty sure it was Starfleet Academy) did an entire issue in Klingon. Not everyone speaks Klingon, you know - not even the majority of Trekkers/Trekkies (whatever the hell they're calling themselves this week) - but when you can follow a story without an explicit understanding of the spoken dialogue, good storytelling will win the reader over more than a narrative gimmick will (which I imagine is comics storytelling 101 kinda-stuff).
ReplyDeleteBB #26 was a disjointed and uncomfortable read for me - the use of notes suggests that even those putting the book out knew that the story wouldn't work on visuals alone, possibly because contextual clues such as body language is hard to judge with static images rendered in stylised artwork, especially if it's merely slightly-exaggerated caricature work like Mike Norton produces here (although otherwise his artwork is fine).
Am I offended with what DC did with Blue Beetle 26? Yes - I'm offended by having to pay for a comic that I have to struggle to read, and that in the end wasn't worth the effort compared to earlier issues.
I'm from the North of Ireland, and there's an Irish-language television station called TG4 that can be recieved (here in the North) from across the border (the South, technically another country) which shows programmes such as Power Rangers and Justice League translated into Gaelic, and kids here watch it all the time (the english-language channels from Britain having all but given up on children's programming in the last few years), despite not understanding the language being spoken. They can follow what's going on and they don't seem terribly upset at being 'forced' to endure something in a language foreign to the one that the overwealming majority of them speak and hear every day.
Saying that presenting no alternative to the Spanish dialogue is 'racist' is a senseless claim - how does it discriminate against a race? You can argue it discriminates against english-speakers - although it really only discriminates against those who just want to read the story - but 'English-Speaking' isn't an actual racial demographic last time I checked.
Good for DC, all the same - I recall reading an interview with Scottish writer Alan Grant in which he pointed out Lobo's high sales in Latin American countries and suggested that DC produce the book for a market where it would clearly be profitable and later produce translated editions if there was enough demand in North America, only to be rebuked with "That's not how DC does things" and the book's cancellation. It's good that DC is finally heeding his advice and moving with the times - audiences change, and entertainment mediums must change with them or lose them.
If you can't read Spanish, then people can't really force you to read it. The comic itself was bilingual thanks to the English notes in the back, which made this argument a bit silly for me.
ReplyDeleteJeg skriver dette paa et spraak Dave ikke kan lese fordi det vil irritere Dave.
ReplyDelete"Because I want foreign people coming to an English speaking country to learn, I don’t know, ENGLISH????"
ReplyDeleteOMG, I can't imagine what it must be like to have a group of people come to your country without permission, refuse to learn the language or respect the local customs. Why, the next thing you know, the dreaded Mexicans will make you sign treaties (in "Mexican" of course) giving away all your land and then forcing you to live on reservations with only commodities (perhaps surplus Taco Bell) to eat. On the plus side, though, maybe they will name their sports teams "The Honkies" with a fat white guy in a wifebeater holding a beer as their mascot in order to "honor" you.
i'm gonna make my own blog
ReplyDelete