Via Newsarama, who swears that "no editorial judgment" went into this assessment; just unbiased math.
"...if you’re one of those people who are looking at both, and we know you’re out there, together, both will set you back $432.12 for 133 books from now through the end of the year.
There you have it. We’ll no doubt revisit both Secret Invasion and Final Crisis totals as future solicitations come out, and we discern individual issues of import to add. Happy shopping!"
Dude. We're on the edge of a recession.
This just doesn't work. Readers can't be forced to follow this many books to understand the story. I'm not saying this because I think huge events like this are wrong from a personal standpoint. But from a business standpoint -- this publishing model only really benefits from the hardcore readers who were buying all the books anyway. Any new reader is going to view their checklist and freak the f**k out and say "this is way too much of an investment for me."
This isn't an editorial judgment either. I'm just telling it like it is. I know people who are considering ending their cable service in order to save money. I know people who won't go out with everyone else at lunchtime at the office in order to eat in and save money. Everybody is trying to save money. Who has $200 to spend on a large comic book story, much less $400? Not only does this discourage the new reader, but it puts many committed readers in a bit of a pickle.
I don't collect events. I just keep buying my regular titles, even the crossover issues, and hope that the story will be comprehensible enough. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But that's the way I'm doing it. Not because I hate events. Because I don't have the money -- and, to be frank, the quality of events over the last 5 years has been a mixed bag. Does DC expect readers to shell out at least $200 for Final Crisis after expecting them to buy the weekly Countdown for a year?
Where is the incentive?
Honestly, this is the reason I've been hesitating to get back into comics.
ReplyDeleteI was a pretty hard-core collected during the explosion of the early 90's/late 80's, and (a couple of years ago) started once again to get into the trades--collecting Transmet, Starman, and then JSA. But, halfway into it, two things happened: 1) I had a child and 2) Infinite Crisis began.
Suddenly, my cash flow dwindled and whatever hope I had of catch up to storylines disappeared.
Now, almost two years later, I might have begun to get back into it, but I got laid off, and my wife decided that it would be best to stay home with the baby rather than absorb the overwhelming costs and illnesses that were a central part of dealing with day care. My wife still works as a professional blogger, but makes nowhere near as much. We're selling things off and trying to stay afloat. But luxury items, like movies and comic books?
There's no way.
That total really only affects people who buy each individual tie-in. You can get the gist by picking up the "Final Crisis" and "Secret Invasion" comics. You don't have to buy Secret Invasion: Fantastic Four and Secret Invasion: Millie the Model to understand the story. The incentive? Well, I picked up Secret Invasion: FF, and they go ahead and tell you that Mr Fantastic and Invisible Woman are Scrulls, if you can't wait another month to hear about it in some other book.
ReplyDeleteFinal Crisis has nothing to offer me, though I am looking forward to Batman: RIP. The sad thing is that most people will give up health insurance before they quit comics. It IS out of control, but the best way to combat it is just not to buy. Marvel and DC probably figure they'll make up the difference on selling all the TPB tie-ins later on.
Besides the 2 main event titles I'm making no effort to pick up any comics I wasn't collecting previously.
ReplyDeleteSorry.
ReplyDeleteShould have said that my wife and I decided that it would be to for to stay home with the baby.
Don't want to make it seem like she's unilaterally making these kinds of decisions.
Amazing that the first Crisis was such a massive shakeup for the DCU, and yet I can pick up the oversized collectors edition thing on the shelf, read the 12 issues (or whatever it was) and bam, story over and I understood everything that went on.
ReplyDeleteNow its only an "epic event" if it spreads across six million comics. Because of course its quantity that counts, not quality, right?
So, so very glad I don't buy comics anymore. I keep up with what's going on via sites such as this (and a handful of others) and check out Scans Daily every so often. Other than that, it's game over for me as far as purchasing goes because the level of money required doesn't even come close to some fleeting level of satisfaction with regards what you've bought.
I stuck with 52 because I loved it - I could see the trainwreck coming a mile off with Countdown, and as a result didn't buy a single issue. I dread to think how cheated I'd have felt if I'd bought every issue of that mess.
"The sad thing is that most people will give up health insurance before they quit comics."
ReplyDeleteI actually know someone who, to continue buying comics, discontinued purchasing his diabetes medication.
His point: "Comics are my big enjoyment in life. If I can't enjoy myself, what is the point?"
Is this the core reader base the mainstream wants to focus on?
I know a number of hardcore collector like this, btw. One lived off of vitamins. I wish I was exaggerating.
And another thing to think about is that because of the Internet, you can follow your favorite characters through online recaps and Scans Daily for a good bit of time without actually buying the books.
ReplyDeleteIt's just not a "captive" audience anymore. It's an increasingly discerning and particular one -- one that, given the choice between the latest event and a critically-acclaimed trade-paperback collecting some classic series, might very well choose to pick the latter.
Because of backlist and extensive reprint programs, one need not be bound to time in one's comic purchases. You could enjoy the first DC "Crisis" for the first time tomorrow.
this is why i am nearly 100% a trade reader. i mean even if i could afford either or both these events, why the eff would i?
ReplyDeleteit is just crazy.
plus i will hear if a story is not self contained and then be likely to skip it entirely.
that comic companies are so slow to develop alternative models of distribution that would be far cheaper will be the death of that which i so adore, i fear.
and if the economy tanks much further, how long till a 70s like DC implosion occurs and the ensuing canceled comics cavalcade?
also, please, please, please turn off the lime green background. my eyes would rather be stuck out with hot pokers than view chartreuse in any form!!!
Why do people think they feel "forced" to buy every tie-in? While I agree the number of tie-ins is a bit excessive (especially for Secret Invasion), both Marvel and DC have said you don't have to read the tie-ins to understand the story.
ReplyDeleteThe only SI and FC tie-ins I'm getting are the titles I would normally get anyway, with the occasional extra tie-in that piques my interest and fits within my monthly comics budget.
I'd buy 'Secret Invasion: Millie The Model.' It'd be the most interesting thing to come out of a crossover in the last decade. Seriously.
ReplyDeleteI have a feeling - due to both the flagging economy and increasing gas prices - that many issues of both series are gonna be found at a $1 each in the long boxes at near-future cons.
"Amazing that the first Crisis was such a massive shakeup for the DCU, and yet I can pick up the oversized collectors edition thing on the shelf, read the 12 issues (or whatever it was) and bam, story over and I understood everything that went on."
ReplyDeleteWhen it was being published, there were gazillions of Crisis tie-ins. All a DC comic had to do was have the red sky and it got a Crisis tie-in logo up on top. A lot of fans were pissed off because a character would make a remark about the skies and that was it. Even Swamp Thing had a Crisis tie-in, though Alan Moore tried to do a good job of making Swampi fit into it.
I've always associated that 80s song "Red Skies" by the Fixx with Crisis on Infinite Earths. Now it is in my head again. :-)
One of the things that is really frusterating about these crossovers is how bad most of the tie-in issues are. I love crossovers in theory, the idea that everyone shares a universe (or, um, 52 universes). I think the last one I bought EVERY issue of was DC's Our Worlds at War. Most of them sucked, but, Man, there was a JSA tie-in that completely rocked and made me feel pretty good about buying all that crappy stuff... for a while. Oh, sure, I still impulse buy some pretty bad tie-in stuff. But I keep in mind, how useful was the Rann/Thanagar war to understanding Infinite Crisis? Well, the war wasn't really that big of a deal. And yes, I kept buying Countdown, thinking that we might be counting down to something, which, as it turned out, we weren't. (Side Note: If, in your final issue, a good part of it is dealing with everyone heading home at the end of a long journey instead of something really cool going on, it's a warning sign. At the end of a countdown, the ship launches! It's cool!) So, I've finally learned my lesson and I'm just buying Final Crisis and Secret Invasion and only the tie-in issues I would've bought normally. If something gets really good word-of-mouth, I'll buy the trade. But... alas, I'm buying Trinity. I can't explain why except that it looks good.
ReplyDeleteI guess working in advertising we don't really see this. Especially cause we are interactive advertising so we are doing BETTER since more companies are pulling tv and radio dollars and pushing it more into interactive.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, my brother and I spend about 70$ a week on comics. So this doesn't really seem that much to me since it's spread out over 7-8 months. It's not all at one time.
And we do buy each tie in, just cause I like it that way.
Like Incredible Hercules I read for the first time because of SI, and I loved it!
Ha. That diabetes medication thing is amazing.
ReplyDeleteAfter issue #2 and the lukewarm Avengers' tie-ins, I think Secret Invasion is one for the trades.
ReplyDeleteAnd I NEVER wait for the trades, normally.
I'm buying both series off the stands... but tie-in issues (that I wouldn't otherwise be buying anyway) get a VERY close scrutiny before I'll pick them up. The way it works out, I'll usually get most of what DC publishes and less of Marvel's output, since I read a lot more DC than Marvel normally. It doesn't wind up goosing my monthly expenditures too much.
ReplyDelete"both Marvel and DC have said you don't have to read the tie-ins to understand the story."
ReplyDeleteProblem is, they *always* say this. Its in their best interest to.
When they first announced Final Crisis, I seem to recall them saying NO tie-ins that would be needed for the main story, but there *would* be two spin off books and that would be it. Sure enough, a few months on and we already have a bunch of tie ins....the Spectre one, Rann / Thangar, Legion of Superheroes and a couple of others. Is the Martian Manhunter dies horribly one a tie in too? Or is that being told in an ongoing?
And so the sprawl begins anyway.
They can claim all those tie-ins aren't needed to enjoy the main story all they want, but I doubt that'll be the case once the smoke clears.
"When it was being published, there were gazillions of Crisis tie-ins."
While there were tons of spin off thingies for the original Crisis, as you point out, the actual "crisis content" usually amounted to "ooh look a red sky" or whatever. You didn't need to pick them up in the grand scheme of things, and the main story works as a single entity as far as I can remember.
Will I be able to say the same of Final Crisis when done and dusted? Sadly, I don't think I will. Horrendously convoluted storyline, here we come!
Along with Secret Invasion, I am also buying Mighty Avengers and New Avengers. Those are two books I normally don't buy. Lastly, I am also getting the Fantastic Four mini.
ReplyDeleteI normally don't get tie-ins, they are usually poor quality. The Avengers tie-ins have been good supplements.
I am on the fence about Final Crisis. I might not buy it. if I do, I will only get the main series.
"They can claim all those tie-ins aren't needed to enjoy the main story all they want, but I doubt that'll be the case once the smoke clears."
ReplyDeleteI found both Infinite Crisis and World War Hulk perfectly enjoyable and understandable without getting all the tie-ins, and so far Secret Invasion is enjoyable without me having read Avengers: The Initiative Annual #1, or the Captain Marvel and Ms. Marvel tie-ins.
"I found both Infinite Crisis and World War Hulk perfectly enjoyable and understandable without getting all the tie-ins"
ReplyDeletefor my money, WWH was one of the best events, period. It was of a reasonable length, had a compelling story, limited tie-ins, and had appeal to both new and old readers. I liked it better than Civil War.
the thing about Secret Invasion a lot of the tie ins are just in regular books, so if you are reading SI you most likely already read NA and MA, so no big deal!
ReplyDeleteFF and X-men are just cause it would totally break the ongoing arc/cycle of story if they just lumped it in there, and there really isnt enough room to show the "x-men's" reaction.
if they DIDNT do the crossover with FF and X-men people would have a cow over why they didn't confront it in their books.
besides, the X-men Xover is being written by Mike fucking Carey. Nuff Said.
How often do readers actually need more than just the main title to understand an event?
ReplyDeleteScott Iskow said:
ReplyDelete"How often do readers actually need more than just the main title to understand an event?"
Fairly often, actually. (Sorry, I'm writing a book on the subject for TwoMorrows Press, so it's kind of on my mind.) It's something that seems to go in cycles, depending on which faction is the most vocal--'Legends' was a very minimalist crossover, with the story being told almost entirely in the main title and the tie-ins relatively minor.
People squawked that they were buying tie-ins that weren't "important", so the next major crossover, 'Millennium', featured a lot of key plot points in the tie-ins, and that you really needed to read all of in order to make much sense of it. (There were recaps in the core series, but it works much better if you read the whole thing. Which bodes ill for the upcoming trade, but...)
Naturally, people complained about that, too, saying that they were being forced to buy lots of comics in order to understand the story. (Steve Englehart suggested that this was a function of increased comics prices; he said he didn't hear a lot of complaints until comics went up over a buck.)
Ultimately, it's something that seems to go back and forth, much like the prevalence of crossovers themselves. (There was a long fallow period following the failure of 'Our Worlds At War', 'Last Laugh', and 'Maximum Security' in close succession.)
I'd go on longer, but hey, I gotta save something for the book. :)
Honestly, this is why I torrent my comics. Figure out what is chaff and what is wheat then buy the trades.
ReplyDeleteThe bigs need to get on board with digital distribution.
I'm in Australia, so comics, like books, are considerably more expensive (a $2.99 book is $5.70 here, and our dollar is approaching parity with yours). I don't have a cashflow problem, and we're not in recession here (yet), but the amount of money it costs to follow a crossover is just ridiculous. Like many others, I'm reading main issues and my regular titles, then t*rrenting anything else that's relevant.
ReplyDeleteIt's not just comics that people give up their medication for - I've seen people complain that they don't want to pay $5 for their lifesaving medication, then walk out and buy beer and cigarettes. I once had a customer tell me that he had decided to buy a season ticket to the football instead of his blood pressure medication, because you can't see blood pressure anyway.
If you read the central World War Hulk and Civil War book you probably got a better story than if you followed all the side books as well.
ReplyDeleteLooks like it'll be the same for Secret Invasion and Final Crisis. if you really want, maybe check the other books written by the lead writers as well - Bendis' Avenger books, say.
It's just not a "captive" audience anymore. It's an increasingly discerning and particular one -- one that, given the choice between the latest event and a critically-acclaimed trade-paperback collecting some classic series, might very well choose to pick the latter.
ReplyDeleteI ALWAYS choose the latter. I may not be the best example and I'm certainly not part of whatever core market these guys are trying to tap, but the big events mean nothing to me at all. A lot of sound and fury and you know what that signifies. They're undone with the next big event.
Plus I'm not at all interested in universe-wide continuity. I'm more an internal story continuity person. Keep the story logic working and I'm good.
Isn't there a saturation point with these things, or some kind of market fatigue? If everything's epic, doesn't it just make a mockery of the whole idea of "epic?"
And imagine the poor writer who comes in with a lot of ideas for Batman or Superman, then finds out he or she has to put all that aside because all the editors got to talking and came up with this boffo idea you have to work into your stories? Are you writing it, or are they?
3.99 * 7 = 27.93 +tax.
ReplyDeleteI just don't feel obligated to read all these crossovers. Just because a Skrull shows up in She-hulk doesn't make it essential reading. The only cross overs I'll be reading are in books I already pick up, like the Avengers books.
I feel the same about Final Crisis, except a couple of the 1-shots sound cool. But I don't feel like I need them.
It's ironic that the publishers wanted so badly to bring in the new readers, only to completely abandon those methods and fall right back into their own status quo.
ReplyDelete