On my vacation from my blog I sought corporate sponsors for Friends of Lulu's annual Lulu Awards. This is not much different than selling Girl Scout cookies, except there are no cookies, and if you fail, the really bad Christmas tree with the three branches is going to be in the pageant.
Do not want:
Do want:
The biggest DC news to come out of MegaCon, as far as I'm concerned, is that there was an audience member in the DCU Countdown To Crisis Panel dressed like Jay Garrick. You get rid of the Speed Force, this fellow's coming after you with that metal salad bowl on his head.
Just in case you thought the furor over Spider-Man's OMD/BND has settled...well...No.
I was particularly impressed by the poster who said he posted to religious websites about "One More Day" even though he was an atheist. Love of Mary Jane apparently trumps religious persuasion. Now that's something we can all get behind. It's like buying the world a Coke.
Lisa Fortuner provides guidelines for writers of international characters, courtesy of "The Mainstream Comics Industry":"However, the Mainstream Comics Industry advises against researching another culture and creating a well-rounded original character based on actual facts, because this could result in your readers thinking of foreign nations as places with a rich history and culture populated by a variety of individual thinkers who are worthy of respect as human beings. This leads to the audience raising their standards and refusing to pay for books that don’t adhere to that standard. "
But Lisa, if you just think of those characters as Legacy Heroes, and give them a chance instead of tearing them down because of supposed inaccuracies and "uninspired characterization" (my God, as if there really is such a thing), maybe they can blossom.
(runs)
Which reminds me...
Remember Faith from JLA?
What the hell happened to her?
See, when I worked on JLA, Faith was created to "kill two birds with one stone" by virtue of her Latin-American heritage. So you got a Woman (big W, trademarked) and an International Character.
Ask Morrison if he's going to use Faith in Final Crisis. Maybe she can be in one of those epic George Perez-like crowd scenes that get turned into a poster with a numbered identification index. She could be right behind Fire's shoulder. Boy, that Fire, I'll tell ya -- she's one hot Brazilian. Get it?
You know, I was really cool with the Yellow Lanterns. To me, that made all sorts of sense.
But now there are Red Lanterns...
So according to this Newsarama article, the Red Lanterns spew "their red energy of hate."
And the first of these Lanterns is named, appropriately, "Atrocitus." George Lucas School Of Naming. Atrocitus used to hang out with Evilicus in middle school.
I don't get it, weren't the Yellow Lanterns supposed to be the bad guys? And the really important question -- the action figures, are they coming out soon?
Where Geoff Johns gets his writing inspiration:
Video: "Asian Christopher Walken"
Bonus points if you understand the meaning behind the "Miss Saigon" T-shirt he's wearing.
It fascinates me that Asian stereotypes are still acceptable in entertainment. I dunno, is Fu Manchu offensive?
Another thing that seems still acceptable in entertainment is homophobia. I just caught the movie Wild Hogs on cable the other day -- you know, sat through as much as I could of that dreck. The movie was obsessed with jokes about homosexuality. I mean, one after another. All of them of the "being thought gay is the absolute most humiliating thing ever!" variety.
"Oh, no, we're all naked in the watering hole and now there are boys swimming in it! Don't get too close to my naked body! And look, now the naked gay cop that's been stalking us is going to jump in the watering hole too! What a freak! WE aren't freaks like that. We are real guys."
In the scene, John Travolta's character plays the most homophobic guy of the bunch.
Well, that's all I've got. Back to the grind.
Wait a minute, Fire used to fly propelled by green-hot snot from her nostrils...?
ReplyDeleteRed, & also upcoming are Orange (Greed), Violet (Love), Indigo (Hope). & Black (Zombies). I personally am really digging The Lantern War comics; I liked Sinestro Corps & that set THIS up. Yay for it.
ReplyDeleteAs Mordicai said, Sinestro Corps War kicked off a whole big thing, the next step of which is the rise of several different Corps, with each color representing part of the emotional spectrum. They've already said the next big GL event happens in 2009, giving them the time to set all this up.
ReplyDeleteIt's going to be ace.
Are you sure it's not Lavender for Love? Then it would tie into that whole homophobia thing Val talks about later ...
ReplyDeleteAs much as I want to insult superhero comic readers again (that's a joke!), I gotta admit, I think the OMD/BND Spider-man fans have a point. Marvel has sold them 20 some years of Peter Parker & Mary Jane as a married couple, and the readers have replied by investing in that story telling dynamic. To suddenly jettison that dynamic and replace it with stories about what is essentially an anti-hero - when compared to Spider-man of the past 20 years - is a betrayal of what is almost an implicit contract with the readers. Marvel did it in order to attract a younger reading audience that, for all practical purposes, isn't reading comics, so therein lies the real mystery. Why does Marvel feel trying to appeal to an audience that has ignored them altogether make business sense? It would be like Maybelene suddenly deciding to sell make-up to men. While there's nothing wrong with the core question - if we market make-up to men, can we get them to buy it - there's tons of empirical data to show it's not going to happen.
ReplyDeleteWhat are "legacy heroes?" How do they factor in with minority characters? I don't understand the debate at all because I don't know what people are talking about.
"...[A]nd "uninspired characterization" (my God, as if there really is such a thing)...[,]"
There is such a thing! Especially in superhero comics where often writers put characters into situations for the sole reason of having a character there.
Red, black, orange, and purple Lanterns? Superhero comics have now completely fallen outside of my realm of understanding. This sounds like the kind of thing a 10 year old would write as fan-fiction; a twist on an obvious element that isn't even used to say anything unique. What's next? Weak-, Incredible-, and Happy-man? (I think I should go read my daily dose of Journalista now! lol)
But Fire is well used in Checkmate as a supporting character and in a realistic way. Her ethnic background is realistic and honest.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you trying to say here Val?
wild hogs wasnt nearly as bad as chuck and larry.
ReplyDeleteaside from kevin james being teh hotness, the movie was one big homophobic joke.
then they kinda sorta apologize at the end, but still, 2 hours of gay bashing, and then a 5 minute wrap of how gays are people too is still completely offensive.
We kid. We kid... because we love.
ReplyDeleteWelcome back, Val.
ReplyDeleteYour irony detector. Don't leave home without it.
ReplyDeleteKenny:
Legacy characters - characters based on pre-existing characters and continuing their "legacy". Can happen over time - Flash III (Wally West) based on Silver Age Flash based on Golden Age Flash - or simultaneously - Batwoman, Bat-Girl and various Batgirls based on Batman. Most of the time it is very hard for a "legacy character" to step out of the shadow of the character s/he is based on, especially if that character continues to appear in stories as well (one of the few characters who can be said to have succeeded would be the Wasp, IMO). If you'll check the link OS provided, you'll find a discussion of Valerie's comments about too many ethnic and female heroes being such "legacy characters" as opposed to original characters in their own right (basically kalinara excuses it because all characters are legacy heroes, apparently).
"What are you trying to say here Val?"
ReplyDeleteVal<-----"hot" Brazilian. A real South American spitfire, I am. Who listens to NPR's "Fresh Air" and wears comfortable sneakers with my business attire (which admittedly, is kind of yucky but I like it).
But since I'm only half Brazilian, I only shoot green flame out of one nostril.
:-D
I think the South American/Latin American "spitfire" cliche for women has been pretty prevalent throughout pop culture, but you know none of my Latina/South American female friends or relatives fit that profile. Of course, there is the "Italian Spitfire" cliche, which means I'm doubly doomed.
And yes, before she became "Fire," she was "Green Flame" and had pyrotechnic nasal abilities. Oh for those naive days of my comic reading youth!
And yes, I missed you all as well last week. :)
Of course, then you have the case of Faith from JLA who was specifically created NOT to fall into the "Latina Spitfire" stereotype...and she is hardly remembered today, whereas Green Flame/Fire caught the imagination of comics fans and at least had a broad length of time (20+ years? Am I this friggin' old?) to develop as a character.
ReplyDeleteBut it 'tis a shame about Faith, tho.
And whatever happened to Manitou Raven? Where hast all the JLA characters I assistant-edited on gone?
I probably could have gone my whole life without thinking about Faith again.
ReplyDeleteI know Val has an ax to grind with DC...but Faith? Really? That's where you're staking your flag?
Whatever. There are too many superheroes flying around defined by the type of lasers they fire out their arse as it is. And little else.
I'm going to try and read Pax Romana now. Wish me luck.
Johns is going less for crayons and more for the spectrum of visible light, which the green lanterns are all about. Also, he's making the "evil" emotions be the hot side of the spectrum, with Red, Orange and Yellow. The cool side has Hope and Love and one other (btw, I think it's blue that's hope, not indigo).
ReplyDeleteThere won't be "Violet Lanterns," either. They're already here, called Star Sapphires. It's a nice twist, actually.
And the Black Lanterns are zombies working with Black Hand, and are outside the light spectrum of life.
So while we're all familiar with being a kid playing with color, that level of color knowledge is at least high school physics.
Of course if you know your high-school physics, you'd recall that black is actually an absence of light and light outside the visible spectrum (i.e. light visible to humans) would be either infra-red or ultra-violet (both can be made visible with technical aid and special films, and e.g. bees can perceive light from the the ultraviolet range).
ReplyDeleteOh, and sapphires are proverbially blue...
Yeah, while there are different colored sapphires, I do scratch my head and wonder why purple was what they went with.
ReplyDeleteVal - Manitou Raven died in Justice League Elite, but passed on his powers to his wife, whose ethnicity I can't recall, but I'm pretty sure she wasn't white. She did, however, have an affair with Green Arrow. And people wonder why I hate him.
"I think the South American/Latin American "spitfire" cliche for women has been pretty prevalent throughout pop culture, but you know none of my Latina/South American female friends or relatives fit that profile."
ReplyDeleteBut Val, she has character development that explains her "spitfire" personality within Checkmate. I believe a character can be reappropriated. Once a sterotype doesn't mean always a sterotype.
And Val, just because your Latina females and relatives are not hot headed doesn't mean that none can be. My sister and a few of the girls I dated were hot-headed. It's a normal human emotion. As long as it's not her only characteristic, why is there anything wrong with that?
Greg Rucka goes forward and adds reasons to turn her into more than her stereotype. The way the character is right now, how is faith a better character for it?
I hate this idea that all minority characters have to be a stand in for their race. No one does this to white characters at all. No one goes and says that the Joker represents all whiteness. It infuriates me to hear this. Is it because whiteness is normal?
Manitou Raven died. He was killed by the guy the same guy who made Faith.
ReplyDeleteThe last I heard about JLA Faith, she was about to join the Doom Patrol. Then the various Crises popped up and she vanished.
ReplyDeleteAs for Manitou Raven, as mentioned above, he was killed and his powers transferred to his wife, who then took the name Manitou Dawn. Oddly enough, though, she also vanished, after the last JLA arc before Infinite Crisis.
You missed this blog, didn't you Pedro?
ReplyDeletePedro,
ReplyDelete"I hate this idea that all minority characters have to be a stand in for their race. No one does this to white characters at all. No one goes and says that the Joker represents all whiteness. It infuriates me to hear this. Is it because whiteness is normal?"
I say this because I love! Anyway, as a white man, I want a white male character to represent my race and gender! The nice thing is, there are sooooo many, I think I have a pretty wide field to pick from! lol
So, I'm going to choose...hmm...
OK, I'm making it a choice between Goddamn Batman and Ozymandias! I'm kinda pulling for Ozymandias because he's both a generic, vanilla white guy and "The Man."
Anyway, being serious for a moment, I think the problem is...well, actually I think the problem is looking to a genre that's been largely 2-dimensional for most of its existence and trying to pull 3-dimensional characters out of it to show the world in all of its complexities. I mean, I loved JLI, but every character in that book was used to represent a comedy trope (Martian Manhunter & Batman = straight guys to play jokes off of; Guy Gardner = wacky next door neighbor with his crazy schemes; Blue Beetle & Booster Gold = comically mismatched buddies; etc.)
But more to the point at hand, I think the biggest problem is just a lack of established minorities to flesh out. Like, previous to say, Frank Miller, was Batman anything more than a rich guy without super powers who dressed up in a costume? Has Superman ever been defined as more than an invincible boy scout? There's not really a large pool of characters to go and pull examples from to say, "Oh, well, all Hispanic characters have been broad generalizations" or anything.
I think the other risk is if you define all your minority characters as happy, well-adjusted, level headed, morally good people, then you don't have any conflict to build drama off of.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts, for fun.
menshavik,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your explanation! I get it now!
I think what was lost on me was that when a legacy character is created that the original sticks around. That just seems to defeat the point of creating a legacy character, which in turn makes sense why people would feel minorities are being trivialized.
ken & kenny = me. I was logged into the wrong gmail account! Sorry!
ReplyDelete" Valerie D'Orazio said...
ReplyDeleteYou missed this blog, didn't you Pedro?"
Are you trying to marginalize my opinion like DC does to lesbians?
I have to admit, every time I hear these arguments that there are no stereotyped characters in comics and no token characters in comics, I am fascinated.
ReplyDeleteI have to wonder if it's an age thing. It's like sometimes I talk to a young (16-21) comic creator/fan and they say that they don't know what I'm referring to when I say "sexism in comics." I suppose on one hand that's wonderful, because maybe they never had to experience any of that stuff, and this might be all remnants of an earlier (uglier?) generation.
On the other hand, is it because my generation and the one before it were from the 60s-70s "social awareness/social protest" eras where we were taught about this stuff in school -- and we are just more equipped/sensitive to seeing this stuff?
Or is it just "I love my comic, my comic wouldn't hurt people?"
There just seems to be a disconnect. And I'm trying to suss out whether this is because comics really have developed into this great bastion of diversity and equality -- and I just don't see it -- or whether newer generations haven't been taught as much these skills of critically accessing their entertainment.
And I don't mean that as a put-down or as a way to discredit other opinions. I'm just genuinely interested in figuring this out, because I think it's a topic that hasn't been explored fully and it does have an impact on the comics community & society.
It's like the news will do these big reports on how "there's no racism anymore" because so many people like Obama, they will do a feature on how even Klan members are "ok" with Obama, and then I will go on message boards and they will be full of racist anti-Obama stuff. The media is telling me racism is becoming irrelevant. And then I get in touch with these huge boards filled with people and they are being really racist. If the media is so damn smart and on the pulse of what's going on in the world, why don't they see this racism? Or again, is it that I am hyper-sensitive to seeing the racism due to the generation I was brought up in?
Oh God, now there's breaking news that my governor was involved in a prostitution ring.
It's time for my nap.
"Are you trying to marginalize my opinion like DC does to lesbians?"
ReplyDeletethat's adorable.
"Valerie D'Orazio said...
ReplyDeletethat's adorable."
Sigh Val, this is very great and all, but your analysis of Fire is flawed from many standpoints.
Condescension is rarely a quality substitution for a strong opinion.
In all honesty, why do you put this out there if you don't want to engender conversation?
"In all honesty, why do you put this out there if you don't want to engender conversation?"
ReplyDeletewell, I think we've gone toe-to-toe on these topics many times before, and I'm pretty sure of where you stand and am familiar with the methodology you use.
so I'm just going to put my feet up, grab a cup of chai tea, let somebody else parry with you, and enjoy the ride.
you rock.
"well, I think we've gone toe-to-toe on these topics many times before, and I'm pretty sure of where you stand and am familiar with the methodology you use.
ReplyDeleteso I'm just going to put my feet up, grab a cup of chai tea, let somebody else parry with you, and enjoy the ride.
you rock."
Val, this would be amusing if you have ever parried with me at all.
Putting up Straw Minorities isn't really an argument.
Val,
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I'm involved or not in your vague comments of an argument being posed:
"that there are no stereotyped characters in comics and no token characters in comics[.]"
I don't know whether it applies to my comments or not because it's a straw man argument; no one has claimed there's no stereotyped characters in comics. So who are you saying this to?
My whole argument is that superhero comics are so 2-dimensional that virtually everyone is a stereotype. I even joked around and asked for Ozymandias and the Goddamn Batman to be the stereotype for white guys! lol
Pedro seems to be saying that *sometimes* stereotypes are true and that having a character developed so they fit a stereotype doesn't disqualify them by default.
I dunno, it just seems there's some nuances being missed her. Why I'm saying anything is I'm trying to figure out which of us you're trying to classify with "there are no stereotypes in comics;" the guy saying everyone is a stereotype or the guy saying some stereotypes are an accurate portrayal of real people.
Long story short, I'm confused now....
"Pedro seems to be saying that *sometimes* stereotypes are true and that having a character developed so they fit a stereotype doesn't disqualify them by default.
ReplyDelete"
Kenny, kind of close, but let my just clarify.
I stole this quote from 4th letter , but I agree with it.
A Muslim, Faisa’s faith is very important to her. “I have two aims here: to make her a real person and not someone who has to represent the entire British Muslim world all the time — I think superheroes are too prone to being standard bearers for whole communities — and to make her an everyday religious person who you won’t hear anything religious from until it would naturally come up. Which is hardly ever. She’s not going to be letting anyone down, though. She’s the young hero who will win through. And we’ll play out some of these pressures and fault lines in the comic itself. I want people to adore her, not to be pleased she’s there as part of a quota system.”
White people get to be fiery, homicidal, loveable, assholes, super geniuses, lovers, heroes, jerkstores and kindly. I just want the same range.
"Where Geoff Johns gets his writing inspiration"
ReplyDeleteOh man. There's a story behind this thing between you two, isn't there?
"White people get to be fiery, homicidal, loveable, assholes, super geniuses, lovers, heroes, jerkstores and kindly. I just want the same range."
ReplyDeleteHell, just on your blog, Funnybook Babylon, I've been all that in one thread! lol
But yes, I see what you're saying now, and I agree. I think that's the same point I was trying to get to earlier when I was talking about superhero comics just now getting that third dimension and characters just in the past few years being developed fully from two dimensional stereotypes into fully developed personas.
In other words, just because a character represents a "minority" doesn't mean they have to be the flag bearer for the minority they represent. I mean, it's irrational to expect someone in real life to be well adjusted, happy, peaceful, and kind *all* the time, and we shouldn't expect the same out of our fictional characters, either. I think if every minority character is the perfect model of class and civility, then you lose a lot of drama that can come from character interaction.
My favorite minority characters are still the one's from Dwayne McDuffie's Milestone universe. I remember the teenage black girl in Icon, Rocket, got pregnant and the book dealt with a young teenage girl facing pregnancy. Sure, someone could point to that and say, "Well, that's just an example of the stereotype of young, black, teenage women getting pregnant," but to do so would be to miss a *great* story and one of the best defined characters in superhero comics history.
I tend to stand by the idea that the characters can be flawed in conception but any decent writer can do a good job in redeeming the character. Fire in Checkmate is great, I haven't read much with her in it otherwise.
ReplyDeleteWonder Woman has a pretty Effed up origin but who cares? Write a good wonder woman and I'll read it.
So I'd say we don't need to bash DC's characters, either go after their creators or a writer that is bad.
Plus I read a lot of the JLA and I had no real memory of her specifically being Latin American or really what her powers were. What the hell did she ever do anyway? I'm not surprised she disappeared. Fire is on fire with green flame, that is a cool and memorable concept.
"Pedro seems to be saying that *sometimes* stereotypes are true and that having a character developed so they fit a stereotype doesn't disqualify them by default."
ReplyDeletethat's a reallllllllly slippery slope.
Andy,
ReplyDeleteFaith's ethnicity wasn't really touched upon. In fact, the first person to mention it (snidely) was then-Pres. Luthor during a tour of the Watchtower introducing dignitaries to the post-Obsidian Age League.
After that there was a scene or two -- I think it was during the Byrne/Clairemont JLA arc -- where she was seen shopping and speaking some Spanish. The conclusion of that story, as I mentioned before, had set her up to join the Doom Patrol.
"Pedro seems to be saying that *sometimes* stereotypes are true and that having a character developed so they fit a stereotype doesn't disqualify them by default."
ReplyDeletethat's a reallllllllly slippery slope.
It would be if I said that. Kenny seemed to get the clarification very well. Sometimes Val, you like to stir things up, but not take it seriously when people respond to it.
Is this issue here that we take your writing more seriously than you do?
Kenny said:
ReplyDelete"Pedro seems to be saying that *sometimes* stereotypes are true and that having a character developed so they fit a stereotype doesn't disqualify them by default."
Pedro said:
"Kenny seemed to get the clarification very well."
Valerie said:
"Nuff said."
Regarding the Christopher Walken portion of the post, I'm guessing the "Miss Saigon" T-shirt is a reference to The Deer Hunter, where Walken plays a Vietnam vet who ends up in Saigon playing Russian Roulette for a living. Such as it is.
ReplyDeleteSo why is a character that fits a stereotype, even though she has plenty of character development and is well-rounded, disqualified by default?
ReplyDelete"So why is a character that fits a stereotype, even though she has plenty of character development and is well-rounded, disqualified by default?"
ReplyDeleteMatt, I ask myself this question about Witchblade everyday. I just don't understand why they just won't give Sara Pezzini a chance.
Probably the bare ass with the cyber-webbing.
Yes we know Witchblade sucks, but considering we're talking about Fire here I don't see your point.
ReplyDeleteMind actually answering the question or are you still just throwing out "controversial" comments that you'll never back up in an endless quest for page views?
"Mind actually answering the question or are you still just throwing out "controversial" comments that you'll never back up in an endless quest for page views?"
ReplyDeleteYou set up articles in Wikipedia for "imminent deletion" in your spare time just for kicks, don't you? Just to feel that rush. It's like your version of being in the jet in Top Gun. You engage in petty little arguments on the internet and smoke a cigarette after.
My God, Matt...it really *is* that important to you.
God, I didn't know...
Well, you're right, Matt: there is no overly-sexualized history of Fire in the JLA. There are no Latin stereotypes in popular culture. And I don't want to be quoted saying the thing about some stereotypes being justified, but if you did feel that way, I wouldn't rain on your parade.
You are right, Matt.
Matt Is Right.
It's going to be okay. You are Somebody. You are The Master Of This Comments Page, the Master of Post ID #2585950957379771360.
Enjoy it.
Are you capable of responding to an argument without a personal insult?
ReplyDeletedamn
ReplyDeleteAnyway in the interest of dragging a conversation kicking and screaming out of you:
ReplyDelete"Well, you're right, Matt: there is no overly-sexualized history of Fire in the JLA."
There is an overly-sexualized history of Fire in the JLA. However, if you've followed the character at all, this is not the case these days. I don't understand how you can read something like Greg Rucka's Checkmate and continue to dismiss the character because, on occasion, she is written to have a "firey latin" personality.
"There are no Latin stereotypes in popular culture."
Of course there are. Nobody ever said there weren't. My argument was, stated again for clarity, that the fact that a character may have a stereotypical trait is not grounds for immediate dismissal.
"And I don't want to be quoted saying the thing about some stereotypes being justified, but if you did feel that way, I wouldn't rain on your parade."
I don't understand what this part of the paragraph has to do with anything but to be fair most of your arguments are dodges or so circular that they've folded in on themselves and become mobius strips, so it can't be helped.
"Are you capable of responding to an argument without a personal insult?"
ReplyDeleteIf you come on my blog with a pissy complaining attitude, with nothing positive to say, then expect to reap what you sow. You are not a not a "darling" to be coddled and apologized to when you come on here doing the equivalent of wiping your muddy feet on my floor. Got that?
You don't like what I write? Don't come on here and whine about it like a 13-year-old. Go read another f**king blog. See if they tolerate your negativity.
I owe you NO respect when you disrespect this blog. It isn't a democracy, where you can come in here and bitch and insult me and my intelligence and I'm going to bend over backwards to make sure your rights as a debater are preserved.
Got that?
And if you don't like it, please please please take you and your self-righteous whiny comments elsewhere. I won't feel hurt. You can even blog about how unfair I am. I mean, I won't link to you to give you more exposure, but you are free to do it.
So please go, and f**k you. Really, I had enough of s**ts like you and the negativity you drag into this realm like a stinking sack of crap. Take it to the other boards.
"I don't understand what this part of the paragraph has to do with anything but to be fair most of your arguments are dodges or so circular that they've folded in on themselves and become mobius strips, so it can't be helped."
ReplyDeleteThe Master Of Post Post ID #2585950957379771360 has spoken.
Refreshments will be served.