I've been doing research lately on exactly how many women have comic books, via Diamond, coming out each month.
It's been quite a learning experience for me. This learning experience is continuing. I haven't even really started the manga yet.
What is the percentage of comics created (in some capacity) by women in Previews in any given month? A rough estimate: about 10%.
Given this, to set out and purchase all the female-created comic books that come out on the stands on Wednesday is no big economic set-back for me. I become so familiar with the comics through the research that once I finally see them on the stands on Wednesday, they are sort of like "old friends." And so I pick them up.
This is not an endorsement of such a method of comics purchasing. This is just what I have consciously decided to do.
I'm doing this research for Friends of Lulu, and a lot of this hard data will be collected and presented, via our newsletter, to FoL members. But here is a list of the female comic book creators who will have books come out, via Diamond, over the next two months.
EDIT: this list does NOT include colorists or letterers. If the coloring & lettering information is not available through the Previews information, I would have to contact each publisher individually and go over every book they have. I do this research on a volunteer basis, as time permits between work. So unless I have volunteers to help gather and collate this information on a bi-monthly basis (we do these lists for two months at a time), it may be unlikely that I can include colorists and letterers at this point. If you feel strongly about this issue and would like to volunteer your time, please email me via the envelope icon on my sidebar
Gail Simone
Nicola Scott
Colleen Coover
Rhianna Pratchett
C.E. Murphy
Trudy Cooper
Rebekah Isaacs
Emily Stone
Charity Larrison
G. Willow Wilson
Barbara Randall Kesel
Ellie Bethel
Alexandra Colombo
Amy Reeder
Linda Medley
Emily Salzfass
Chrissy Delk
Christine Boylan
Bettina Kurkoski
Ariel Schrag
Fiona Staples
Nancy Butler
Robin Furth
Raina Telgemeier
Marjane Satrapi
Lark Pien
Sherrilyn Kenyon
Nikki Cook
Johanna Stokes
C. Tyler
Sho Murase
Sarah Kinney
Miss Lasko-Gross
Compared to the list of male comic creators with work coming out the same time, this is a relatively small group of names. But, to be honest, these are more names than I expected to find.
There are some caveats to this. One, if we added the female creators from independently-distributed comic books and webcomics, the number of women jumps dramatically. Two: like I said, I haven't taken into account female manga creators yet.
But when I'm interviewed, I am almost always asked how many women are working in comics today. I usually have a vague answer, along the lines of "not many," or "not enough."
I don't want to approach this issue in the future as a matter of vague answers. I want data. I want to take this out of the realm of vagueness and get to know names. I want to know names & content. I want the creators and the content to be the focus. I want what has been done to be the focus, not what hasn't.
(this post cross-posted at the Friends of Lulu blog)
Agreed, more names than I'd have thought as well.
ReplyDeleteWhat's coming out by Satrapi?
As a small-press/mini-comic creator/fan, it seems like the number of women creators is those circles is much higher than in mainstream comics. Not 50% or anything, but I'd say something like 30% or higher might be reasonable. I'm not talking about stuff from Fantagraphics and Top Shelf, I'm talking self-published comics, mini-comics and the like. But it's hard to come up with any real data because it would be difficult to find out about that woman in Dubuque, Iowa who copies her comic at the local Kinko's and only makes 50 copies.
ReplyDelete"What's coming out by Satrapi?"
ReplyDeleteSoftcover of Chicken With Plums
"But it's hard to come up with any real data because it would be difficult to find out about that woman in Dubuque, Iowa who copies her comic at the local Kinko's and only makes 50 copies."
ReplyDeleteMy next step is create a database of stuff like this, so we can get a better picture of what's out there and also direct people to their work.
I'm curious to see your final numbers.
ReplyDeleteBy "creators", I'm assuming you mean writers, pencilers, and inkers. You might mean writers and pencilers or pencil+inks.
I don't know any female letterers or colorists, but they usually don't get counted. And editors don't usually count either :)
So out of these two or three jobs only 10% have a woman on either post? I don't know if I should cry because of the small numbers, or if I should be heartened that this is an improvement.
Still, I think the manga tradition is going to be the future of American print comics. I'd love to see a census of OEL manga and webcomics. That would have more predictive value.
Is this from the "New" previews catalog where they cut out a lot of the smaller stuff?
ReplyDelete"By "creators", I'm assuming you mean writers, pencilers, and inkers. You might mean writers and pencilers or pencil+inks."
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to include inkers. The next step will be to decide to include letterers and colorists. If the information is readily available in the Previews guide, this will make things easier.
"So out of these two or three jobs only 10% have a woman on either post? I don't know if I should cry because of the small numbers, or if I should be heartened that this is an improvement."
I try to look at it as a first step. First step: finding out what is out there.
Second step: Analyze the reasons why. Ask, interview. Are these women being "blocked" by mainstream publishing? What sort of comics are they interested in publishing? What genres? What formats? We need to get first-hand interviews, polls, surveys.
Third step: Partner with publishers, become a conduit between publishers and potential female comic creators. Mentor young women interested in comic writing & art.
And promoting the work of the women who are already have stuff out there in the "mainstream," that should be happening through this whole process.
No Sandra Hope (inker)? Colleen Doran doesn't have any work out there or coming out soon? There's a few lady colorists working but as mentioned I guess that doesn't count for this survey? Just asking to help out.
ReplyDeleteGood luck!
"Is this from the "New" previews catalog where they cut out a lot of the smaller stuff?"
ReplyDelete*think* so. not sure.
Ah, after I posted I saw your update. For colorists there's Laura DePuy Martin and Eva Hopkins but that's all I can think of off the top of my head. For inkers, besides Sandra, there's Rachel Dodson.
ReplyDeleteYou forgot colorists.
ReplyDelete"I'm trying to include inkers. The next step will be to decide to include letterers and colorists. If the information is readily available in the Previews guide, this will make things easier."
ReplyDeleteYou're kidding right? You seriously think you have to make a conscious decision on whether or not colorists and letterer's are creators?
Here's a few more active women in comics:
ReplyDeleteMarjorie Liu (NYX, Dark Wolverine)
Kathyrn Immonen (Hellcat)
Sara Pichelli (NYX, Eternals, Star Trek)
Let me know if you want help on this. Previews will list Various as the creators when there are more than 2 for space considerations. In case you haven't seen,BOOM Studios has been using a LOT of female talent lately- Kim Krizan,Emma Rios, Amy Mebberson, Erica Leigh Currey (just to name a few)
ReplyDeleteWhat would you say the percentage of people trying to break into or even keep jobs in comics are women?
ReplyDelete"You're kidding right? You seriously think you have to make a conscious decision on whether or not colorists and letterer's are creators?"
ReplyDeleteHi CeeCee,
No, I have to make a conscious decision whether to include them in this particular list if the information is not readily available through Previews. Because then I have to call and contact each publisher individually to get this information. I do this work on a volunteer basis, between my other jobs.
So if you would like to volunteer your time to get this information, feel free to contact us at info@friends-lulu.org.
Thanks so much! :-)
"You forgot colorists."
ReplyDeleteHi Emily!
I have to make a conscious decision whether to include them in this particular list if the information is not readily available through Previews. Because then I have to call and contact each publisher individually to get this information, for every comic book they put out every month. I do this work on a volunteer basis, between my other jobs. If I do not have the time to call every publisher, I will have to out a caveat at the beginning of the list to say it does not include colorists or letterers.
If you would like to volunteer some of your time to help get some of this information, feel free to contact me at my email address or contact Friends of Lulu at info@friends-lulu.org. :-)
Hi all,
ReplyDeletethanks for the input.
Just to clarify, the list I included only covers two months of books. It is not an all-inclusive list of every female comic creator that has work out recently.
I understand the limitations resulting in non-inclusion of colorists, I think it just goes to show that colorists are underappreciated, at least when it comes to what companies think retailers care about when choosing books to order.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I'd argue that there are actually more "TOP" names in coloring that are women than are men, especially at Marvel. There were three colorists who did any work on the number 1 book of 2008 (Marvel's Secret Invasion), and they were all women.
"However, I'd argue that there are actually more "TOP" names in coloring that are women than are men, especially at Marvel."
ReplyDeleteI agree; I spent almost two years keeping track of every colorist working for DC, as part of my job in their creative services department. There were a relatively bigger amount of female colorists than pencillers, inkers, and writers.
My problem is -- if I include one or two of the "bigger" name female colorists, I really have to include all of them.
Each one of these "topics" is its own research project. Perhaps if I spend a week researching nothing but female colorists, I will get a better familiarity with them, and enough contacts so that they can provide me a release schedule of their work.
But that, then, is a week devoted to that particular research project.
Same for manga creators. Same for webcomics.
Which is fine -- but that is going to take time. Volunteer researchers make it go faster.
The two-month Previews list took me a solid weekend (between other work) to compile, but now that I'm more familiar with many of these creators & their books, I think it will go a little faster next time.
Hey Val,
ReplyDeleteHere are more women with work out right now & in Previews for the next 2 months just from Marvel alone:
Writers
Marjorie Liu
Laurell K Hamilton
Kathryn Immonen
Abigail Denson
Nancy Butler
Artist
Sara Pichelli
Adriana Melo
Colorists (off the top of my head)
Emily Warren
Christina Strain
Sonia Obeck
Laura Martin
Jelena Kevic-Djurdjevic
June Chung
Jana Schirmer
Elizabeth Dismang Breitweiser
Giulia Brusco
Cover artists
Jo Chen
Alina Urasov
Editors (whose work should also be noted)
Jeanine Schaefer
Lauren Sankovitch
Jen Grunwald
Nicole Boose
Hope that helps add to the list & I can tell you (and anyone who asks) that there is certainly no "blocking" of talent regadless of gender, creed, color or orientation at Marvel.
Jim, thank you!!!
ReplyDeleteThanks for your help too, Bob!
ReplyDelete"Let me know if you want help on this."
ReplyDeleteThanks, Jenny. I got your email, we will work on this.
Jenny is our new Membership Secretary at the FoL national board, by the way.
I'd still like to know your or any other person's answer to my question of "What would you say the percentage of people trying to break into or even keep jobs in comics are women?"
ReplyDeleteIf the answer is equal to or less than 10% (which I'm not sure if it is or isn't,) then it would show that women are pretty successful when it comes to their goal of making it in comics.
McCann: no "blocking" of talent? Protesting too much, aren't we? :) I don't think that's Valerie's implication, is it?
"I'd still like to know your or any other person's answer to my question of "What would you say the percentage of people trying to break into or even keep jobs in comics are women?""
ReplyDeleteDo you mean on the creative side, or the editing/publishing/marketing/etc. side as well?
I did a survey of women working within the comics industry (editing, etc) last year. If you include positions within departments like Marketing, the # of women goes up exponentially.
As for women who want to break into creating comics --
Here is where I need data. Or at least need to interview a good sample size of females. All I have are anecdotes and some observations.
You know, it's like the sum total of 60 interviews (or even surveys) with women about these topics are worth more than any punditry I or any other individual woman could do. We need a rounded picture. I could make guesses and give you what I think are the answers. I don't want to give guesses. I don't want to approach a publisher, with the intention of encouraging them to hire more women, and say: "here are my guesses and opinions on this issue." I want to get data and narratives.
"I don't want to approach a publisher, with the intention of encouraging them to hire more women, and say: "here are my guesses and opinions on this issue." I want to get data and narratives."
ReplyDeleteAs a female creator, I'm actually really turned off by your desire to push publishers to hire more women solely based on the "numbers" and gender.
I would refuse to work with anyone that was hired primarily based on their gender rather than skill. I refuse to let my sex be any sort golden ticket or gimmick. It's reverse sexism and does nothing to advance women in comics.
what about the female editors of comics?
ReplyDeletealso jen van meter is wrapping up her black lightning story arc.
@CeeCee I don't think anyone is saying hire unqualified women but there's no way only 10% of female creators are as talented as men, and thus the opposite of your argument is occurring: some male creators are being hired over there more talented female counterparts.
ReplyDelete"I want the creators and the content to be the focus. I want what has been done to be the focus, not what hasn't."
ReplyDeleteI think this is fantastic!
Thank you :)
""I don't want to approach a publisher, with the intention of encouraging them to hire more women, and say: "here are my guesses and opinions on this issue." I want to get data and narratives."
ReplyDeleteAs a female creator, I'm actually really turned off by your desire to push publishers to hire more women solely based on the "numbers" and gender."
CeeCee, I fail to understand how you interpreted the passage you quoted from my post as something offensive. I get emails from women and girls all the time asking me how to break into mainstream comic books. Women who want to write "Batman" and "Spider-Man." On the flipside, I know for a fact that both Marvel & DC have, at one time or another, tried/are trying to outreach to female comic book creators. You may see their attempts to do so in a negative light. I see it as a way to connect the women who have announced their intentions to work in comics with the publishers that are willing to give them jobs (especially in this economy!). I'm all for anything that increases the amount of women working in comics; I don't think it's evil, offensive, or anything else.
And punditry or strong opinions do not replace finding out, from the women themselves, what they feel and want. A common question I get is, "do women really want to do superhero comics?" You know what? I have no idea -- not until I ask many women and get a better sense of it. And the answer is either going to be: "there is no clear answer, everybody wants to do something different!" or it might be "there is a marked aversion/attraction to doing superhero comics, and here is why." That's actually something good to know, either way. That helps me, that helps other women, it helps the publishers, it helps everyone.
Lastly, if you feel that there is shame in the idea of women getting together and supporting each other -- that it "reduces you to a gender" and you feel this is dehumanizing -- then you should have issue not just with Friends of Lulu but the many female-based advocacy groups and professional organizations out there. And there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of them, in every field you can possibly think of. They often work with the job providers in their fields to make sure females are adequately represented and treated fairly -- is that offensive too?
But I respect your opinion. We each do things using different styles. I sincerely wish you luck and success with the style you have chosen.
Somewhere, Jeff Robinov is plotting.
ReplyDelete"CeeCee, I fail to understand how you interpreted the passage you quoted from my post as something offensive."
ReplyDeleteThe whole quote I pasted says it all. You want to approach publishers with solid numbers as a means of showing them data as to why they should be encouraged to hire more women.
And this is where you and I differ. I do not offer a helping hand to just women, or prefer to offer it to women, or go the extra length to offer it to women. I offer it to ANYONE who is interested in comics regardless of their gender.
Breaking into comics is universally difficult for men and women. Just because there are girls saying that they want to write batman and whatever, doesn't mean there isn't the same number of men saying the same. Why should I be extra attentive to a female for wanting to break in over a guy?
If anything, guys have it extra hard when trying to break in because there ARE more of them. I can tell you this from experience WAITING in portfolio review lines and GIVING portfolio reviews. There ARE more men than women in those lines and I certainly had a harder time remembering individual males over females because of the sheer number of men.
This is apparently another area in which you and I don't see eye to eye. While I have no issues with Lulu I have no interest in joining them or any gender based support group for comics. I'd rather join a group specifically targeted at my specialty. I'd rather be part of a colorist organization than female organization because I'm more interested in my needs as a colorist. And in the end of the day, as anyone who is actually a creator in comics will tell you, that's what you'll be griping about at the end of the day. Your actual job.
My point is this, I don't believe that women need to be SOUGHT OUT and HELPED UP the ladder in comics. It's always boiled down to how much do you want it and how hard are you going to work for it. And that goes for everyone. Every successful female that I know in comics has worked her ass off and is successful because she went for it, without needing the support helping hand of another woman because some men were holding her back. Men have helped me, women have helped me, and my gender has never ever been an issue for the good or the bad. And I take tremendous amounts of pride in that and our industry because it goes to show just how skill based it really is.
@Paul DeBenedetto As someone who's ACTUALLY been thru portfolio review lines and gotten a job that way, I can tell you that in 2 years of it, I met a grand total of like 3 maybe 4 women who were also in that line to get their portfolio reviewed and not just holding their boyfriend's spot in line for them. And as someone who's GIVEN portfolio reviews a number of times and once it led to someone actually getting a job (was a dude)... the number of girls in that line was INSANELY SMALL in comparison to men. So yeah, the number of great portfolios by women I saw in comparison to men was insanely small.
On top of all of that, I've introduced several people to editors at Marvel and I can say, for sure, that a grand total of 2 of them were women while the rest, which I don't even remember the count for, were all dudes.
When first started reading comics, Jo Duffy and Cynthia Martin were working on Star Wars at Marvel, Louise Simonson was a writer on Power Pack and X-Factor, and Ann Nocenti was an editor and the wrote Longshot and then Daredevil (a very underrated run IMO). Bobbie Chase came in as the editor on the Hulk shortly after that. Women had important roles in the creation of most of the comics I read when I first started picking them up. Then came the '90s and these ladies (I think Chase stuck around as an editor) seemed to disappear.
ReplyDelete"Breaking into comics is universally difficult for men and women."
ReplyDeleteYou used the word "universal" -- that's quite a blanket statement, isn't it? How did you come to a point in your life where you felt comfortable to speak for every woman in the comic book industry?
See, my point is: maybe you're right. But it's just one opinion. For every opinion someone like you gives that there isn't a problem, there are women who say that there *is* a problem. Isn't it better to find out from as many women as possible what they think? You call it "numbers," and say that's offensive -- but it's *not* offensive for you to speak for the entire female comic book community?
"My point is this, I don't believe that women need to be SOUGHT OUT and HELPED UP the ladder in comics. It's always boiled down to how much do you want it and how hard are you going to work for it."
Then what you are saying, in essence, is that the reason there are so damn few women in comparison to men in the comic book industry is that they must be deficient in some way. Either they are deficient in desire/ambition: "They don't really *want* to be in the industry." Or, they are deficient in talent. "That is why they cannot compete."
Now, again: you may be right. Or wrong. Isn't it better to have some data to back up your claim? Wouldn't collecting the narratives of a good cross-section of women in the field (and women trying to break in) help clear this issue up, so that the men who are having it so much harder than women in the comic book industry can be vindicated?
"Women had important roles in the creation of most of the comics I read when I first started picking them up. Then came the '90s and these ladies (I think Chase stuck around as an editor) seemed to disappear."
ReplyDeleteI grew up -- in the 1980s -- thinking that women working in comics was a pretty normal thing. The 90s *were* rather awful in terms of the # of women in the industry. I don't know what happened between one decade and the next. I have my guesses -- but unless I have a lot of research and recorded narratives from a variety of sources to back it up, I'm not going into what they were.
Two more lady writers for ya-
ReplyDeleteCharlotte Fullerton has been writing the Ben 10 stories in DC's Cartoon Network Action Pack.
Amy Rogers has been writing stories for DC's Cartoon Network Block Party.
"Then what you are saying, in essence, is that the reason there are so damn few women in comparison to men in the comic book industry is that they must be deficient in some way. Either they are deficient in desire/ambition: "They don't really *want* to be in the industry." Or, they are deficient in talent. "That is why they cannot compete." "
ReplyDeleteI'm confused how you got her saying women are deficient out of that? If someone doesn't really want something all that badly, how can you say that's a deficiency in ambition? She wasn't saying "women aren't working hard enough", she was speaking generally, for men as well- so I'm unsure why you chose to specifically pick women out of that equation.
What CeeCee and Mike Choi were pointing out is that there are FAR fewer women trying to break into comics than men, therefore there are fewer women compared to men in the industry. I have to say as a woman in comics I've never felt discriminated against for being a woman.
I HAVE however felt discriminated against as a colorist, and this list of female creators just furthers that.
"For every opinion someone like you gives that there isn't a problem, there are women who say that there *is* a problem."
ReplyDeleteYou and I sat on the same panel at SDCC last year. You were the 1 out of ten comic book professionals who said she had encountered sexism. Seeing as that was a pretty random selection of jobs within comics, it seemed like a decent reflection of women in comics.
And I don't doubt there are working industry women who say there is a problem, just like any other job, there ARE BOUND to be some cases of sexism and sexual harassment.
"Then what you are saying, in essence, is that the reason there are so damn few women in comparison to men in the comic book industry is that they must be deficient in some way. Either they are deficient in desire/ambition: "They don't really *want* to be in the industry." Or, they are deficient in talent. "That is why they cannot compete."
Um, don't twist my words. I never once said women are deficient. I said that everyone INCLUDING WOMEN AND MEN have to work their ASS off to get into comics. No one gets that HANDED to them like they DESERVE IT. What makes that 18 year old girl who wishes she could write batman so much more deserving than an 18 year old boy who wishes the same thing? Neither of them deserves that job on a silver platter, they both should work HARD to EARN it.
If anything YOU'RE the one pushing this towards some idea that women need extra help and support like our gender is a handicap. I think we ARE EQUAL to men and should work just as hard as anyone else to get where we want to in life.
"Now, again: you may be right. Or wrong. Isn't it better to have some data to back up your claim? Wouldn't collecting the narratives of a good cross-section of women in the field (and women trying to break in) help clear this issue up, so that the men who are having it so much harder than women in the comic book industry can be vindicated?"
I don't NEED numbers to tell me that what I already know and have actually EXPERIENCED. But if you're so determined to produce them in whatever fight it is you feel you're fighting, at least get a REAL count. Telling a female colorist it's too much work to count them on your list of creators is offensive. If you feel this information is so vital, then at least put in the extra work to gather it ALL instead of telling female creators that they don't count (or asking them to get the information for you) cause you don't have the time to do it right.
"I HAVE however felt discriminated against as a colorist, and this list of female creators just furthers that."
ReplyDeleteEmily, I'm sorry if you felt discriminated against. I explained my rationale to leave the colorists and letterists off the list for now twice -- but I'll do it one more time.
I get my information from Previews. They do not have (usually) colorist and letterer info. In order to get that --for individual comics on an individual monthly basis, I have to contact each publisher directly. I work on a volunteer basis between jobs. I would need an assistant to contact all these publishers. And again, if you have information on women who would might like to assist, let me know.
I am also sorry you have felt discrimination in the industry because you are a colorist. It sucks to feel discriminated against -- just like many women claim (or have claimed) in the comic book industry to have been discriminated against based on their gender.
If you and Christina have felt this discrimination, then I would think you would *sympathize* rather than dismiss what these women have to say.
Christina has said over and over again in her comments that there isn't discrimination against women in comics, but that there just aren't enough women who want to do comics:
"As someone who's ACTUALLY been thru portfolio review lines and gotten a job that way, I can tell you that in 2 years of it, I met a grand total of like 3 maybe 4 women who were also in that line to get their portfolio reviewed and not just holding their boyfriend's spot in line for them."
Christina uses this as a justification of why she doesn't feel a need to specifically help other women in comics, and why she feels publishers shouldn't conduct outreach to women. Because they just aren't there. See? No discrimination. Poof! The women just aren't there. Like air.
Christina doesn't directly give theories as to why these women are missing. But she helpfully adds:
"It's always boiled down to how much do you want it and how hard are you going to work for it. And that goes for everyone. Every successful female that I know in comics has worked her ass off and is successful because she went for it, without needing the support helping hand of another woman because some men were holding her back."
So if we work backward from what she is saying, the reason that the women aren't on those review lines, or on the stands in print, might be because, unlike her, they:
* are NOT working their ass off
* they need (horrors!) "a helping hand"
* they do not "know how much they want it and how hard they are willing to work for it."
Again -- I'm not saying she is right or wrong. But the implication is clearly there as to why she thinks there aren't that much women in the field.
Finally, she says that she doesn't believe in people of the same gender giving special help to one another -- that gender isn't a "glue" that she uses for a feeling of solidarity. Her job -- coloring -- is.
You are obviously motivated by a deep feeling of connectedness, loyalty, and pride for being a member of a group called Colorists. You go to each other's defense, and post on blogs about fair treatment of the members of your craft.
Why can't women do the same thing for each other, for being in a group called Women?
Wow. What I thought was going to be a great mentorship list and resource for somebody interested in getting into comics became a giant cat fight. Seriously. This is shameful and pathetic.
ReplyDeleteEmily? Won't you be coloring C&D? CeeCee didn't you share a stage with Valerie on a 'Women of Marvel Comics' panel?
Can't we all just get along?
I mean - all of you -just get over yourselves.
I get it. I mean, I understand that putting these kind of lists together is exhaustive and kind of a pain-in-the-ass. But, rather than bitch and moan, how about doing somethign about it an stop fighting with one another.
Emily, you are what? 23? 24? You've been in the industry for how long? Where as Valerie has been in the industry for a decade of so? And what about all the women who founded Friends of Lulu in the first place? You think they founded it ... just because? At some point, in the comic industry, there was a serious problem with women in comics, which is why I'm assuming Valerie put the list together in the first place.
It's damn foolish to assume that Valerie has no respect for colorists. But, then again, she certainly didn't feel driven to create a blog called 'We Can't All Be Pros'
'[http://wecantallbepros.blogspot.com/]
in reaction to some deep feeling of inadequacy.
I thought professionals would act like professionals. Take their gripes with one another out of the public eye, like grown ups. But, it just goes to show me that somehow you've all given colorists and woman in comics as bad name.
I'm really just blindsided by your sheer lack of common sense here. There is no excuse for it.
http://youcannotallbepros.blogspot.com/
ReplyDelete"You and I sat on the same panel at SDCC last year. You were the 1 out of ten comic book professionals who said she had encountered sexism. Seeing as that was a pretty random selection of jobs within comics, it seemed like a decent reflection of women in comics."
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/db83lq
here, go read through about 20 pages of this and get a more well-rounded education, from both sides.
And if you feel so strongly about how distasteful it is to have women-specific things -- why were you even *on* that women in comics panel?
Everything you have written is from an intensely negative viewpoint and language that ultimately dismisses not only any claims of discrimination made by women past and present -- but the very *idea* of sisterhood of any kind.
"If anything YOU'RE the one pushing this towards some idea that women need extra help and support like our gender is a handicap."
If you don't see any disparity between the # of men and women working in the comic book industry, then you are blind. Oh, but you *do* see it -- and say it's all about the only women being on the review lines are girlfriends and about "working your ass off." That's your opinion. You may be right. But why are you so against a further examination of this issue to set the record straight?
I at one time entertained many of the viewpoints you have written here. But at that point I had to realize that to maintain that view would be to discount much testimony from other women. I realized that unless I had as big a picture as possible, from a many disciplines as possible, I could not make "universal" statements.
"Telling a female colorist it's too much work to count them on your list of creators is offensive. If you feel this information is so vital, then at least put in the extra work to gather it ALL instead of telling female creators that they don't count (or asking them to get the information for you) cause you don't have the time to do it right."
Then put your money where your mouth is and help us -- and the case of colorists -- out with your volunteer time.
And you just spent 2-3 loooong posts dismissing other women's claims of discrimination -- yet you still harp on how *hurt* you are that somebody "discriminated" against you -- even if that "discrimination" has to be misrepresented by you in order to make your claim. You are basically telling women: "stop needing hand-holding and have a thick skin!" -- yet you don't have one yourself.
I don't mind if you tell me I have no reason to claim that I ever was offended by my treatment in the comic book industry -- that's your opinion, that's cool. But it's hypocritical to then turn it around and claim "victim." You've been playing victim since your first post.
You want women to stop being "hypersensitive" and jumping to conclusions about discrimination, yeah? Well, start with yourself.
Gloria, thanks for the support.
ReplyDeleteI really thought this list would be helpful, and a good start to larger research projects -- both by myself and others. I still think that. I am still pursuing it. I am still buying comics made by women on a weekly basis, and I will review them and highlight them and that's all there s to it.
I was on that panel for the exact reason I opened up with, to stand up and say that working for Marvel's been wonderful and I haven't had problems with discrimination. Something 8 other women agreed with me on so obviously I wasn't alone in that thought.
ReplyDelete"I don't mind if you tell me I have no reason to claim that I ever was offended by my treatment in the comic book industry -- that's your opinion, that's cool. But it's hypocritical to then turn it around and claim "victim." You've been playing victim since your first post."
Never claimed victim. Claimed angry at ignorant statements. You're the one wanting to do the numbers on women in comics and you're the one disregarding a large percentage of us.
"Then put your money where your mouth is and help us -- and the case of colorists -- out with your volunteer time. "
Again, I'm not interested because I don't agree with your reason for collecting the information. It's a biased reason without bothering to look at other contributing factors including the actual number of women trying to actually get into the american comic industry.
"If you don't see any disparity between the # of men and women working in the comic book industry, then you are blind. Oh, but you *do* see it -- and say it's all about the only women being on the review lines are girlfriends and about "working your ass off." That's your opinion. You may be right. But why are you so against a further examination of this issue to set the record straight?"
Because, like I said, I don't see you as being interested in setting the record straight. And on top of that, I don't think you, crunching some numbers you find in previews, is going to reveal any sort of ground breaking explination that no one's ever thought before.
"You want women to stop being "hypersensitive" and jumping to conclusions about discrimination, yeah? Well, start with yourself."
You're right. I am hypersensitive to this false idea that I should belong to some sisterhood because I have a vagina. I just don't roll like that. It's the one question I get asked on a regular basis because people have this false notion that my industry is bad to women. It's not. And I'd like people to know that side of the coin as opposed to your views.
Yanno, considering how many people I love/know/have worked with in comics, I can't imagine how it is that apparently you know so many women in comics who've had such bad times. I mean, I seriously can't name one that would ever say that they think that the comics industry is a sexist field where women require assistance or publishers need to be told to hire more women. And apparently I can name several inkers/colorists/editors currently in comics off the top of my head that you and other people on this board can't. I mean, if the opinion of several actual currently in the industry women doesn't really count, then what does?
I mean, simple numbers and percentages and statistics aren't going to tell you crap as to exactly why it is the way it is.
So yeah. What's the point.
@Glory Honestly, I don't think I'll be debating this much longer cause it's getting circular at this point but I don't think this is really that bad of a topic to debate in a public forum.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I was on that panel with her. She didn't voice any of the opinions that she voices here while she was on the panel, and if she had, I would've debated her there too.
Yes, there's a level of professionalism I try to maintain, and normally do, and here I should've really stopped responding about two posts ago, but I think this is an incredibly important topic.
I'm not joking when I say that people love to ask me what it's like to be a woman in comics. Initially I didn't really get the reason I was getting asked that question until I started reading a lot of women's reactions to various goings-ons in the comics industry.
We don't all feel that way. Which is why I choose to be vocal about it at times. It's about debating the sides and expressing that not everyone feels the same way.
As for your blog, dude, that's incredibly incredibly ugly and mean. And I don't care that Valerie didn't do it, you're just taking petty actions out on Emily for having an opinion when honestly, I'm the one you should've been vocal about. Not her.
And also, emailing her and telling Marvel fires her makes you a really rude and spiteful and ugly person. They're not going to fire her, infact someone from marvel's already posted on here so you can quit hoping now.
Seriously, I was with you until I saw that site you created and the email you sent Emily. That was really poor taste.
man, who would have thought this would have any controversy...
ReplyDeleteI'd be curious to know the ratio of women comic readers to creators too, but of course nobody is counting this stuff. Comics would probably be better if they were written/drawn/colored by a cross section of people that were more diverse. More viewpoints is usually better, so I would support any group that tried to balance things.
And come on, nobody is hating on colorists :)
Valerie-
ReplyDeleteI do not think I'm dismissing what women say. I'm simply telling you how I feel on the matter. I understand your reason for not listing colorists. I'm not trying to attack you for writing a list that doesn't include them. That was not my point.
Gloria-
Not only have you personally attacked me, but you're using a blog that I made, for silly little pictures that has absolutely NOTHING to do with being a pro or even having a JOB, against me. In fact, if you looked at the date the blog was even created I think you would see I made it before I even had a job.
I feel I've been professional in my responses to Valerie. She has an opinion and I have mine, that doesn't mean we can't work together. However, I appreciate the advice on being professional, as you have certainly treated me with the upmost professionalism.
But thanks for your email anyway!
Well, for what it's worth, I think making a list like this is... something positive. I'm not sure what at this point, especially after reading the objections... none of which I can actually relate to what I believe this list is about, in all honesty. I certainly can't see how taking a census of women in comics is hurting anything, or attempting to force companies to adopt some kind of tokenism to the diminishment of women creators. I mean, I suppose I understand where CeeCee is coming from but I really think she's looking at this ass-backwards and not seeing a much broader implication even in her own examples of porfolio review demographics.
ReplyDeleteBut I could see making a list like this available to the reading public as possibly encouraging more women to take a shot at becoming pros, be they mainstream or indies.
After all... why aren't there more women in those portfolio review lines?
@joel
ReplyDelete"After all... why aren't there more women in those portfolio review lines?"
Cause there aren't as many women reading Marvel and DC comics as men. I don't even read superhero comics, I read manga and indie comics. :P
I'm not a professional. I'm a fan, looking to break into the industry. These sorts of lists help me - I find it to be a great resources. In my new blog, I've created something that is now a reflection of the nastiness and ignorance that I've read in this post. Emily, you and Christina have inspired me - and I've forwarded your post responses to Rich Johnston, so everyone can see how utterly stupid you all look in this thread. And, don't bother deleteing your posts, gmail keeps a record of them for me. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteyour sister in comics,
gloria
@gloria reyes I have no intention of taking down my posts because I'm not ashamed of anything I've said here. At no point did I hope anyone would lose their job like you hoped Emily would lose hers (I'm still amazed at just how horrible and ugly that email you sent was) and I didn't call anyone any ugly names or wish any sort of ill on someone.
ReplyDeleteI can say this for you though. For someone trying to break in, creating that blog sure was not a step in the right direction. It was so incredibly ugly and honestly, I'm glad you're not a fan of mine anymore because after seeing your actions, I'd be embarrassed to have you as one.
>> Cause there aren't as many women reading Marvel and DC comics as men. I don't even read superhero comics, I read manga and indie comics. >>
ReplyDeleteYou're like a grade a idiot *and* a snob. And, you really full of yourself. If you read his comment it read:
"After all... why aren't there more women in those portfolio review lines?"
Nothing in there mentioned superhero comics. Hell, this post wasn't even about superhero comics - and there are plenty of manga and indie places that review portfolios. Beyond that, just get over yourself. Heaven forbid that SLG, Moonstone, Tor, Del Rey, or Hachette want to look at the portfolios of talented female creators.
Gloria,
ReplyDeleteNo problem! Always glad to be an inspiration.
@Gloria Wow, you're like, really pissed off and I'm not entirely sure you should be.
ReplyDeleteI know I said I'd be embarrassed if you were my fan but wow, I didn't call you an idiot or a snob... Woah, come to think of it, you're the first person to ever call me that or be really mean to me. That's kind of awesome...?
I'm sorry my taste in comics made you think I was snobby? Does that mean you think indie comics and manga are snobby? I was just trying to illustrate that I understood why when I was in portfolio review lines there weren't many girls. I mean, it's the American manga market here is still really young and new. These portfolio review lines are really only a few young years old so it wasn't so long ago that your portfolio review lines were purely made up of american companies.
Anyway, you have a good evening there, Goria. Hope you had a nice day aside from whatever it was exactly that we did indirectly to you to set you off like this. Sorry bout that.
CeCe,
ReplyDeleteI'll say this. I don't have to share a panel with you, listen to you, or even read your books anymore - but I'm not an embarrassment to my gender or my profession.
I've said before that you and Emily should be ashamed of yourselves - and its true.
So, go ahead and tweet your tweets, watch your Utena, and pretend that sexist behavior in comics isn't an issue - or that sisterhood isn't important.
And if you think comics is so wonderful, let's switch careers, and you can help reattach a Mexican woman's severed clitoris or try and tell a 13 girl who was raped by her brother that everything is going to be 'okay'
Sexism runs deeps - woman are treated horribly around the world. I wanted to get into comics to help these women and tell their stories - and I see people like you and Emily scoffing.
You're lucky to be where you are doing what you are doing. But, stop kidding yourselves - and wake up.
*deep breathes*
ReplyDeleteI'm going to shut this down now. Thank you all for your spirited input and feedback. If you've like to e-mail me with suggestions or to help volunteer, drop me a line.
Thank you all for contributing.