Images taken from interior pages of Witchblade & WildCATS/Grifter.
Grifter image via Shirtless Superheroes
Oh, and just wanted to zoom in on one part of the Grifter pic:
"Is that your gun or are you just happy to see me?"
"Uh...no actually, that's just my gun."
Witchblade looks like she's farting lightning! Boooo!
ReplyDeleteOn general principal, Witchblade is sexist. This particular image is comic book objectification at its finest. The Witchthong barely covers her double deees and crawls right up her ass. She's arching her back to make sure both her ass and chest stick right the fuck out like big targets for people to shoot lightning at. Who the fuck fights like that?
Grifter here is just naked. No arched back. No titillating over the shoulder glance. No side ass. He's just standing there with a gun over his... erm... gun. Sure, the blond is ogling his ass, but if a naked man was standing right in front of you, you'd stare too.
Depends whether you think a sexualized image equates to a sexist image. I'm not sure that it does. However, the Witchblade image seems to be purely for the sake of titillation, while Grifter is being played for laughs so…
ReplyDeleteif(fanService.nudity == sexism)
{
answer = witchblade
}
else
{
answer = neither
}
Well, for a start, the art in Witchblade hasn't looked like that in YEARS. The book has been blessed with incredible artists recently, who draw beautiful women. Maybe you could check the book out, before making a blanket statement?
ReplyDeleteWell, given I don't have context for reference, I'm going to have to go with the Witchblade panel.
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing -- and again, no context -- that there is a plot-driven reason the guy is nekkid in the WildCATS panel. It seems to be a sight gag.
Meanwhile, the buxom woman in the Witchblade panel, I assume, ALWAYS wears that "outfit." It's part of her design, created by the hormonally-driven artist/creator/whatever.
Though this does introduce another sexist problem with superhero comics: Why is it superchicks are expected to fight evil (or good) wearing what is essentially lingerie (I'm looking at you, White Queen), but the men get jumpsuits, body armor, and you know, practical footwear?
Yeah, there's my two-and-a-half cents!
Neither. They're just drawings.
ReplyDeleteLook, if you could provide a rationale within the story why each character looked the way (s)he did, then whatever.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, though, I can't imagine a rationale that would make sense for that Witchblade shot. It's an emormous rear end shoved into the face of the reader. And a metal, barbed G-string? Could that possibly make sense? In any context outside of pure cheesecake?
We won't get into issues of illustrated porn, but I've never gotten my jollies off looking at some drawing of a person. Don't understand it. Never will.
Woops! Published that comment too soon.
ReplyDeleteI don't find either picture to be sexist. Most superheroes wear very revealing/skin-tight clothing. They're also naked under their clothes. What's "sexist" about showing a naked man?
Dave -- I don't think anyone was making a blanket statement. She was just asking to compare two specific images.
ReplyDelete"Maybe you could check the book out, before making a blanket statement?"
ReplyDeleteDave, all your comments on my blog seem to be whiny, just looking for a reason to cry about something. I can see one or two such comments over the course of many posts, but it's all you seem to contribute.
I'm going to give that Eastwood article in Esquire another read.
"Witchblade looks like she's farting lightning!"
ReplyDeletethat's hot.
You can't say "Well, for a start..." and then only talk about one thing. It's like saying "Well, first of all..." and having there not be a second of all.
ReplyDeleteI don't know. Where do draw the line between sexy and sexist? There might be a tendacy for some to be biased say that one is more sexist because the character is of their gender while they thing the other is hot. Others won't see anything sexist about either or won't care if either is sexist. I think maybe as long as there's enough emphasis on her being a superheroine who can fight the bad guys just as well as the men, then she won't be seen as just an object. I think that's the most important thing. Can she be taken seriously as a superhero. And apparently she can. Her book has lasted this long.
ReplyDeleteI forgot to put before "some will think that neither is sexist" some might think without biased that it's sexist. Some may be biased, some not, some may not care either way. But the point is, like I said, whether she's seen as more than an object is the most important thing, which she is seen as more than an object. I think some people are more interested in the fact that she can kick bad guy butt.
ReplyDeleteI would say the female image is more objectifying as it is a more deliberate sexual posing (although the pistol penis substitute may qualify, I suppose).
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, and I know how this might sound, but I am mostly serious - is ALL objectification of women wrong? I am not saying you have stated or implied that, but I just want to be clear. I believe guys tend to be visually oriented and images of women in sexually provocative attire, poses, and couplings have been around forever. Isn't some level OK. I also believe Eddie Murphy was correct when he stated that men would rather hear their partner say "fuck me" rather than "make love to me"
It is certainly objectionable if the majority of images of women are objectifying or if the context is in appropriate (Nancy Drew shouldn't be dressed like a Bratz doll on the cover). I have never read Witchblade, but I would assume that is an OK context for such images (although I understand that may play into the stereotype of the sexuality of witches as mainly proferred by men).
I'd say the Witchblade cover's more sexist. I'm not too knowledgeable on the Witchblade universe, though, so hell, there might be a reason for that garb, but I doubt it's beyond titillation. If people like it and are willing to buy it though, c'est la vie.
ReplyDeleteI don't like the art styles for either, to be honest.
ReplyDeleteAlthough the one for Grifter at least looks like there was some thought put into it.
Besides, there are half naked male superheroes. Conan, Hawkman, Namor. Some superheroes of either gender are less dressed than others. Most wear skin tight clothes.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, Comics Conspiracy and Laid Off have good points.
ReplyDeleteWitchblade is more sexist because it's titillation (*snort* haha) for it's own sake.
ReplyDeleteAss shot with the side-boob action, and all the while sensually posed with the arching back.
Grifter is standing still, with no sense of sexuality. Just holding his pistol in front of his...er... pisstol for the sake of "covering up" (and of course the visual double-entendre is a must).
Grifter's masculinity has been visually reduced to just his ability to inflict violence. Vintage Witchblade's linkage of the character's power to her nudity has been cataloged pretty exhaustively over the years.
ReplyDeleteBoth are pretty harmful messages, and I sure wouldn't want my kids taking them in without my being there to help them actively question their validity.
I call it a wash.
Also, the anataomy of the Witchblade image is more inaccurate than that of the Grifter image.
ReplyDeleteI enjoy how Comics Conspiracy is the one saying they don't get it.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that either is sexist. from a gratuitous near nudity standpoint, the witchblade picture is way more overtly sexual due to the pose and also in comparison to what you imply from the Grifter picture. The Grifter nudity looks like part of something, like there is a story around it and it isn't sexual, and the Witchblade art is just a lot of skin and 'sexy posing' I think sexist is the wrong word. Maybe Exploitative? maybe not. I generally roll my eyes at stuff like that. Michael Turner or Linsner style stuff isn't my thing generally. I don't think that drawing or liking stuff like the witchblade picture makes you any worse of a person than reading something with Grifter in it does...
ReplyDeleteDidn't notice the blond at first...
ReplyDeleteYou want beefcake? My vote goes to the "Frankenfurter" Cosmic Boy.
http://www.catskillcomics.com/GrellOA/COSMIC%20BOY2008.jpg
(Mike Grell does cheesecake, too, but nothing too scandalous.)
While I appreciate the technique and craft used on the Witchblade illo, it doesn't do anything for me. Doesn't make my eyes bug out, temperature rise, heart beat faster. Maybe I'm getting old, or maybe my tolerance has been increased, or maybe my aesthetics have changed from chiefly visual (still important) to intangibles. In other words, I now prefer Jennifer Walters to She-Hulk.
So, Val, which male superhero would you like to see naked on a fur rug? A lithe, toned Spider-Man? The Olympic perfection of Steve Rogers (sans scars)? The velvet hirsute charm of Nightcrawler? The undefinable aura of Herbie the Fat Fury? The bad boy Gambit?
I'm with Laid Off here. These supposedly titillating drawings just don't do much for me. Or anything for that matter. It's a drawing.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I think it's weird there are so many images of female comic book characters that have to include both the boobs and the ass in the picture. It's like every superheroine has to be reduced to these constituent parts.
And it usually requires a very painful looking twisting of the torso in order for the artist to get both those areas in. That's rapidly becoming my least favorite "sexy" visual cliche. Please stop, artists. It's been done to death and it just looks stupid. Batman never does this, Superman never does this. None of those famous "unclothed" male superheroes ever pose like this.
Strangely enough, they always have to cover the female nipples with at least a token element, tiny as possible. Just to tease it... she's almost naked! Woohoo! Check 'er out, fans!
Meanwhile there's no way an comic with Witchblade in the same circumstances or posture as Grifter there-- totally topless, facing front, a gun in her crotch-- would pass muster. Fake female nudity is okay, real nudity isn't!
That's weak and a cop out. It's like the ol' "cake and eat it too" thing. Or simply a warped double standard of some kind. I can't begin to dissect it in a comment without making another unreadable epic here but it strikes me as wrong and indicative of a kind of stunted, immature, adolescent mentality running through a lot of these kinds of cheesecake-style books. Silly, teenybopper stuff. I seriously cannot imagine an adult mentality that would find that sexy, although I know it's supposed to be.
So I suppose either image could be considered sexist in some reading, but the subtext is pretty snarled and tangled. But I'm annoyed more so with the Witchblade image due to its failings as a drawing and its unorginality.
And despite one person's objections here, it doesn't matter that Witchblade hasn't looked like that in years... the image still exists for comparitive purposes.
Oh... one more thought. People make such noise about superhero comics being so grown up and adult and mature but notice how female near-nudity is all "va-va-voom!" but male nudity is clownish and a joke. I wonder if male comic book artists and male comic book readers can only handle male nudity depicted in such a fashion.
ReplyDeleteRemember the blogstorm that started when Alex Ross gave a slight hint of genitalia to a male character, and even less of one than most guys show when they sit wearing long pants?
Sometimes I wish superhero comics would grow the hell up. Or at least some superhero comic fans.
Forget messages & all that. You can do cheesecake & not be sucky about it. Birds of Prey is a bunch of hot girls kicking ass, occasionally taking showers. Nightwing, same thing, hot dude kicking ass, taking showers. Both are fine with me.
ReplyDeleteWitchblade just isn't GOOD. If it was, it would have a much better shot at me tolerating it.
In that shot though? It seems like the Grifter picture is a joke-- look at the tough guy, without clothes! Whereas the Witchblade picture is cheese. Witchblade doesn't bother me-- it is what it is, everyone knows that. The problem is that you could substitute ANY female superheroine in it-- that is the logic of the industry, & that is dangerous, bad logic.
I guess the more sexist one is the one that is least empowering. The gun is obviously standing in for the penis, which commonly equates the male member with power or strength.
ReplyDeleteWitchblade just looks exposed and vulnerable. Perhaps this is reinforced by the fact that Grifter is proudly on display, while Witchblade is twisting her body as if to avoid something.
I think Jamie Noguchi nails it but I got another reason here: I'd feel really ashamed to be reading something with that Witchblade picture in and would probably laugh at the Grifter one. I assume there's a reason he's naked anyway, not just "a magical weapon attaches to me and all my clothes are gone! OOPS!".
ReplyDeleteIt's the bizarre posing that gets to me. I want to take the artist aside and tell him to stop trying so hard. "It's okay, dude, trust me: A curvy lady in a seaweed bikini (or whatever the hell that's supposed to be) will still be plenty sexy even if you don't turn her into a human pretzel. You don't have to see her butt AND her boobs in every panel."
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, the drawing of the guy manages to convey his hunkiness perfectly well while having him stand in a more or less natural way. Attractive people are attractive, you don't have to gild the lily with some crazy contortionist mating display.
I for one am just glad that Grifter was portrayed as an actual dude with body hair, something superheroes in comics with their chiseled, baby-bare ass bodies obviously have bred out of themselves. Fuzzy dudes unite!
ReplyDeleteI think that while each can be viewed as both sexist and titillating, at the same time, at least that (admittedly old) Witchblade artwork doesn't look Liefeldian. You'd think he'd never seen a real woman before starting to draw them.
They're just art. One's a visual dick joke and one's CLEARLY meant to be viewed as cheesecake. If Terry f'n Dodson had done that Witchblade piece, no one would care.
I don't really find any of them sexist maybe a poor attempt at sexy for witchblade
ReplyDeleteStill the... gun is the better of the two pics easy.
The Witchblade one is the more sexist to me by the way she is posed. The guy is holding a gun in front of his love gun.
ReplyDeleteNow you have to wonder who were these images drawn for? Naked guy with gun (sorry I don't readily know who he is) was not drawn for women, not really, I think he was drawn for straight men,so they could see themselves doing what he is doing if they were nekid with a gun and having a good looking woman checking them out. Now Witchblade she was also drawn for straight men. Both images to me reaffirm a guy's sense of self sexually and power-wise.
As for who I would like to seen drawn tastefully naked as a straight female, that would have to be Batman/Bruce Wayne, but I am not into scoping out corpses, but when Batman/Bruce comes back to life,then we'll talk! : )
I'm not sure which image is more sexist, but if Grifter doesn't see an orthopedic surgeon about those swollen knees he's going to end up in a wheelchair before his next birthday.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I mean.
Considering:
ReplyDelete"Sexism - The belief that one sex (usually the male) is naturally superior to the other and should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life.
The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved."
I would say neither ¬¬