"The reason decadent super-heroes can seem so, so wrong isn't because sex and horror are wrong; it's because super-heroes are really meant for kids. There aren't stories where Thomas the Tank Engine turns into a vampire. There aren't stories where the Snoopy is gang-raped. There aren't stories where the Cat in the Hat starts ripping people's arms off. Because, you know, that stuff is for kids, and, aesthetic atrocity aside, you don't want to fuck up the brand."
Actually, I don't see what the big deal is. It's not like crazy people are dressing up like overly-hyped superhero villains and stabbing babies.
Not all superheroes need to be for children. We don't need children reading books like the Punisher.
ReplyDeleteBut there is something inherently childish about superheroes, which is why I like them.
And if Batman: Brave and the Bold has done anything, it's shown that you can appeal to a younger crowd without losing any of the emotional resonance.
Yeah-- I am against the "superheroes are for kids." Superman or Batman isn't inherintly any sillier than Die Hard or Benjamin Button or WHATEVER.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry um...what?
ReplyDeleteComics are a genre, a medium of art. Thats like saying television is for kids. There's kid's programming, and there's adult programming. Putting words and pictures together automatically makes it for children?
And that horrible thing that happened in Europe? Yeah that was awful, and he dressed up as the joker. So your saying horror comics make people stab babies?? Not mentally unbalanced or horrible evil people do things to get media attention?
I'm sorry but what the hell do you mean!?
Surely using The Dark Knight's scattered, few psychotic fans to show that "superheroes" aren't meant for adult themes disregards the 17 billion people of all ages that saw and enjoyed the film without killing people or feeling ashamed of what they were watching.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I'm not sure what your post is supposed to be saying.
"Comic books are for kids" has been pretty much the rallying cry for comic censorship in one form or another, as long as there have been comics.
ReplyDeleteThe 10 cent plague by David Hajdu is a great read if you're interested in the early comic era and the birth of the comic code.
It's also interesting due to the direct parrallels between the arguments against comics in the 40's and the modern arguments against video games.
All in all, there are comics which are for kids. But the majority of major label comics seem to be aimed more at older adolescents and adults. The core themes of most major comics (Spiderman, X-men, Batman) resonate more with older folks.
The fun comics like Tiny Titans, or Marvel Adventures, featuring good old fashioned heroics and joy, are the comics written for kids these days.
Still great comics, but with a different focus than the major titles.
Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb again and say that any guy that would do something like this would likely dress up like Bugs Bunny and stab someone, given the change.
ReplyDeleteOr Napoleon, as the old cliche about the mentally ill went.
That's not a very "utilitarian" opinion. After all, the first superheroes were Nimrod, Samson, Hercules, Gilgamesh etc. Kids looked up to them but they also appealed to adults as an expression of our base desire for unlimited strength and near inmortality.
ReplyDeleteThe relegation of fiction with characters with god-like powers to books for children came out of the unnatural social repression of the early 20th century.
Decadent superheroes seem wrong because there's few things as frightful as a super-powered person as imperfect and inmoral as most humans.
@mordicai:
ReplyDeleteSaying something is meant for children doesn't mean it's silly. Harry Potter is meant for children, but it's not silly at all.
Which doesn't mean I think all super-heroes should be kid-friendly. I can understand the Idea that a same character should either be marketed towards kids or not. That seems to be the problem with "Vampire Batman". There's Batman-for-kids, Batman-not-for-kids and Batman-most-defenitely-not-for-kids and it's all marketed as Batman.
"I'm sorry but what the hell do you mean!?"
ReplyDeleteHi Jessica,
Visiting a blog and "screaming" at the writer just because you do not agree with him or her is inappropriate, and is no longer tolerated here.
"disregards the 17 billion people of all ages that saw and enjoyed the film without killing people"
ReplyDeleteRyan, I totally agree with you. 17 billion happy fans compared with a couple of dead babies -- I mean, it's crazy to even compare the two. The most important thing in the universe is that people get to enjoy their fandom in peace, and unrestricted. That makes sense to me.
Yeah-- I am against the "superheroes are for kids" [idea].
ReplyDeleteSo am I. Adults can enjoy superheroes as much as any kid. But I am against superheroes excluding kids. Punisher is one thing, but kids should be able to read Batman and Superman.
Comics are a genre, a medium of art. Thats like saying television is for kids. There's kid's programming, and there's adult programming. Putting words and pictures together automatically makes it for children?
Superheroes are the subject of the conversation, not comics.
This just reminds me of the old argument that reading Superman comics would lead kids to try to jump out windows.
ReplyDeleteI get what you're saying...that the dark-n-disturbing Joker is bad and the happy Joker who just roughed people up a bit is better, but if you're going to argue that, why hasn't some guy tried to blow up the San Andreas fault like Gene Hackman in Superman?
Also, Dark Knight is clearly not a movie for kids. I wonder if they should come out with a happier Brave and The Bold Batman movie for kids. That would kinda be cool.
17 billion happy fans compared with a couple of dead babies -- I mean, it's crazy to even compare the two. The most important thing in the universe is that people get to enjoy their fandom in peace, and unrestricted. That makes sense to me.
ReplyDeleteThis is a tough one. I'm not inclined to blame the film for the actions of a sick person, but... I dunno.
And I think I've now been able to pin down why I liked Iron Man more: Iron Man glorified heroism and Dark Knight glorified villainy.
Dark Knight belongs in the same camp as Death Note, far as I'm concerned. Not because it's a bad film, but because it has a darkness that can infect people, just as Death Note did (or does).
I'm starting to figure out why so many Silver Age stories are so bizarre--makes it harder for readers to emulate.
"The most important thing in the universe is that people get to enjoy their fandom in peace, and unrestricted. That makes sense to me."
ReplyDeleteHonest question, do you think that guy was incapable of killing before watching Batman?
Who is to blame? I think the killer, but that is only because he is the one that committed the murders, even if the Joker was totally kickass in the movie.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but... yeah unfiltered access seems about right. Obviously it's terrible that these children died, but then the opposite argument is, what, anything violent should not be portrayed in comics, television or movies? Someone might misinterpret it and go crazy?
ReplyDeleteI wish kids read more comics but I don't ever see them in the shops. Coming from a NY Italian family I have about 5738466 cousins, all younger than I am who have no interest in comics (no matter how hard I've tried to push them). None of their friends read them. But let's say I'm just missing it, let's say they're reading comics in droves... doesn't it ultimately fall on the parents shoulders to say "here is what you can and can not read"? I couldn't read Spawn as a kid. My dad wouldn't let me, there was too much blood. I couldn't watch the Simpsons, Married: With Children, or In Living Color because they were all too "edgy". Where does "artistic responsibility" end and parental responsibility begin?
Superheroes appeal to kids.
ReplyDeleteLike any genre, superheroes can appeal to a variety of age levels. You can tell very adult stories (like Astro City) or very simple stories (like Superman Adventures).
As for lunatics... they'll find an excuse or reason for anything. What we must fear is when the general public looks for scapegoats while it ignores the elephant in the room.
As for people who idolize gangsters and villains and reprobates? Mostly it's a power fantasy. The individual feels powerless, so engages in fantasy. Now... does it matter if that power object is a villain or a hero?
Yeah, my son keep harassing me about watching Dark Knight.
ReplyDeleteI'm not real big on censorship but the flicks pretty violent and not really suitable so I've kept him from it anyway.
He's ten.
Meanwhile they are selling action figures for this thing.
Juan Carlos,
ReplyDeleteWhen you used slurs for my ethnic group on this morning's Occasional Links post, and wrote insulting things, I rejected the comment, yet thought "oh what the hell," and continued to let you post on this blog. A bad call on my part, probably.
No Juan Carlos, I'm not saying they should take any of your comic books away, or that you should have any sense of personal responsibility whatsoever. What I'm saying is that you, Juan Carlos, are the center of the universe. And nobody will ever ever take your comic books away. And nobody will ever disagree with your opinions.
Oh, and feel free to come on my blog and scream and insult any time you want. Or not.
People that say things like this are the people that want to be able to fly and shoot webbing.
ReplyDeleteComic books have been pandering to this kind of fan for a long time now, and it's not only pathetic, but unhealthy.
Expect to see a lot more of this Joker Killer and Real Superhero shit in the future.
I'll never say that comic books are for children. I will say that children's comics should be for children.
ReplyDeleteIt's time to put away the crutch of these legacy IPs.
RE: "This kind of fan" - the kind that throw a quick jab at other comic book fans for not believing the industry/hero/company is doing what they should be - which is what I believed Noah did when he went back and updated his blog entry to reference you disagreeing with him.
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to clear that up, as I think you both have valid arguments, and my comment was way out-of-context.
"People that say things like this are the people that want to be able to fly and shoot webbing.
ReplyDeleteComic books have been pandering to this kind of fan for a long time now, and it's not only pathetic, but unhealthy. "
You really think wanting to fly is pathetic and unhealthy? Why?
I think the real Q here is are comics for kids?
I still play with Lego blocks, I know those are for kids but I don't mind.
So are comics for kids? I am not saying its wrong for us grown ups to like them I am just asking if they are silly toys.
I couldn't comment because work was busy but...I agree about responsibility.
ReplyDeleteEven if I don't agree 100% with everything you're saying (although there is an apologist culture in comic book fandom...hell, in literature fandom, too. You have no idea how many times someone has told me I'm reading too much into things when I say Hemingway had issues with women. Doesn't matter that actual scholars have said it too.)
Anyway, any artists or creators of art merely reflect life, however exaggerated, but there is a responsibility to their audience. I have no problem with comics having "mature readers" labels and kids not being allowed to buy certain books. That's not censorship, but common sense. Unfortunately, commerce again. If they might lose money that the younger kids are willing to spend, execs don't want to do that.
They're shooting themselves in the proverbial foot if they DON'T pay a lot more attention to who they're marketing to and how their product affects their fans. I just know The Dark Knight is not a kids movie, nor was Batman Begins. Should there be an alternative? Yes. Will they do it if there's no profit for them? Probably not.
I just got done watching Hulk vs with my wife and we both got a bit uncomfortable when the hulk ripped off this one girls arms as her cleavage was being shown off.
ReplyDeleteI am not talk about a Deathstrike like scene (I felt people read to far into that)but this one aspect made me think Hulk vs was not going to be shown to any kids anytime soon in my house.
Here is how I see it. Comics are kid stuff that I think grownups can enjoy. However kids stopped reading comics long ago and now you have kids toys with very adult themes ment for the older fanbase being marketed to everyone. Many people knows this and that is why comic readers are seen as freaks or as Occasional Superheroine hints at, disturbed individuals worthy of loathing.
I wonder how OS will handle this when her comic hits selves.
"You really think wanting to fly is pathetic and unhealthy? Why?"
ReplyDeleteI honestly hope you meant The Want To Fly in general, and not so you can be a comic book hero.
Oh, and it usually IS a sign of mental disorder.
"I still play with Lego blocks, I know those are for kids but I don't mind."
And I still own stuffed animals.
But I don't wish they could talk to me.
"Oh, and it usually IS a sign of mental disorder."
ReplyDeleteWhat is; Wanting to fly or thinking you can fly? What is the disorder?
I am mostly sure if I took a vote asking random people if the option existed for them to fly around like superman would they take it out for a spin I would get a almost 100% Yes turn out.
This makes me think you are meaning that people that want to be superhero's are sick and not just people wanting to fly.
However if that is true then it would have to extend to other fields of entertainment as well right? Its my understanding it is not odd at all for people to daydream about being the star in that action movie they just watched or game they just played... that is part of the fun of it all.
If a person is daydreaming about being a hero I very very much doubt there is anything wrong with there minds. Its when someone starts thinking they CAN do something imposable in real life or become super obsessed to the point of harm with chapter 34 of there Star Trek fanfic that I think a line gets crossed.
There is nothing harmful or wrong with a fanciful daydream imo. Is that not what games like D&D are? Although maybe that is a bad choice for example... those people are even more lame then comic book readers.
I'm having a hard time thinking your not purposefully trying to misunderstand me, Andre, because I made it very clear in both posts who I was talking about.
ReplyDeleteYeah, daydream is healthy, fine.
There are crazies in EVERY fanbase. D&D included.
I really have no clue who you are talking about and kinda thought you were just picking on the fanbase like the OC.
ReplyDeleteSo who are you talking about... Juan Carlos?
The only kind of fan I can think of that would warrant playing the nutjob card by you is the kind trapped in a love/hate relationship with comics and can't just let go.
The kind that really care just a little to much about continuity and what happened in issue 235 of whatever comic, The kind that can look at a joke like "Stilt Man" and take any part of it seriously.
I think everyone thinks comics are kids stuff but in fact the only people wanting comics are a few teens and mostly older hardcore fans... but if that is the case and that is who the comics are aimed at then are they really for kids at all, and are all those fans as nuts as mainstream says they are?
Its possible comics are kids toys with overly adult aspects ment only for adults, kinda like a toy doll with her nipples pierced.
If that is the case is that dangerous or just odd?