Look folks, I don't have kids to accidentally buy these comics for, and I know too much about what's currently going on to make the mistake even if I did.
But when this crowd:
finally decides to make this the bee in their bonnet du jour, there's going to be a lot of fucking problems.
And you can say: "well, fuck them anyway, they're a bunch of reactionary maniacs." And you might be right. But as time goes on, and the gore and the sex and language gets more extreme on books that are both not clearly enough marked for adults only AND feature characters that are cross-marketed to kids -- there becomes less and less of a defense.
But what really scares me is the possibility that books of real quality -- such as Watchmen, Preacher, etc. -- will get lumped into the comics witch-hunt. That the good stuff will be taken down because of the crap.
Not that I think books like Watchmen, etc. would get banned from libraries and certain bookstores just because some conservatives were pissed off. You only gotta worry about that if, say, some religious fanatic gets into office after her aged and sick running mate bites the bullet. And I mean -- what are the chances of that happening?
But a book like Watchmen is far too deep to them, too far removed from the funnybooks to really make a lovely self-righteous case out of it. It's not sexy enough for Fox News.
But you know what is?
This.
The utter fucking stupidity of insisting on printing black censor bars over the actual lettering of All-Star Batman and Robin #10 -- why, so you can be real cute and have the letters peek tantalizingly over the sides, so you can only imagine what curse word is being used?
The fact that, even with the black bars, you would think that dialog like this was acceptable in a comic starring characters which are licensed full-tilt to little children, in a comic with a cover that looks like the most iconic and "safe" Batman story you can find:
"...little jailbait CUNT's making us look bad... we cut her come on......sweet piece in sweet slices... tasty sliced booty the little CUNT..."
It's not even justifiable by saying "artistic license" -- this is like eight grades down from one of Quentin Tarantino' s lesser films. This is Frank Miller simply picking up his paycheck, the same way he plunked his arm down on hunk of bristol for the cover of Dark Knight Strikes Again, traced it, and got a big paycheck for an awesome cover.
You know what's missing on that cover? The middle finger.
But while discussing the pulping of All-Star Batman and Robin #10, these weren't the biggest issues on my mind. First question I asked: "Who will get blamed?"
Am I a terrible human being for having every issue up to 10 so far? I kind of find the plot behind the book pretty engaging, and the art is beautiful.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I can't ignore Miller's obvious overuse of swearing and Sin City references, as if he can't capitalize on anything else.
Absolutely right, on all fronts. I'm usually all for artistic expression and all of that...it's very important, no doubt. But this thing--I mean, what's even the POINT? It's just absolutely lazy writing. He's not even doing the ART! He couldn't think of more interesting ways to write that scene? Really? Is his grasp of language that devolved that he can't think of other things to have these characters say?
ReplyDeleteI've never even heard people say things like that, like, EVER...even in jest. So you can't even say it's realistic. It's just really, really stupid.
Like, REALLY stupid.
Ugh. It sickens me that this comic book is still out there, crapping up the joint for the rest of us.
As my friend Stefan says, I say to Frank Miller: Close your mouth--you're letting all the stink out.
If there wasn't a fuss over "Lost Girls" featuring Dorothy, Wendy and Alice...
ReplyDeleteOh and http://www.bobpitch.com/anon/richjohnston_finger.JPG
This reminds me of when rapper/activist Chuck D was criticizing rappers that want to do porn movies while still selling records to a teen audience.
ReplyDeleteIn a comics blog recently, they were talking about how funny it was that characters from the blogger's childhood were kind of no longer stuff for kids, like "would you take your son to watch Dark Knight?"
The funny thing is, this guy loves comics (as I do) but maybe never would ask the opposite question, just like most superhero comic fans: "maybe, just maybe, am I too old for this characters?"
There should be characters for every age as well as stuff that appeals to all ages, such as the Pixar films, but making these characters "hard" for shock value?
You think? You think there's no one left to scapegoat? You think someone will finally look at ASBAR and say, "Holy FUCK! He's really just trying to see what he'll get away with, now. He's...it's like he's not even writing a story...like he's just writing whatever crap we'll let him...and...and it's just not GOOD!"
ReplyDeleteYou think they'll finally stand up, change direction and put an end to the sillyness? From I'm the Goddamned Batman to I'm Mary damn Marvel to I'm fucking Batgirl?
They'll just say, "Oh. Oh no. That's just enough, right there. There's...there's just no way to justify this...and once it hits the general press that something like this is going on it'll...it'll just be bad for everyone."
I mean, I'm not trying to sound sarcastic. I'm just putting what I think the logical person would think after seeing the first THREE issues of ASBAR, let alone the first TEN.
I've been reading up on this on various sites all day and it still amazes me that the Powers That By At DC let this pass muster in the first place. Granted, Miller has the right to write these words, and DC has the right to publish or censor as they see fit, but how the hell did this get past everyone? How did they even let it get to the Letterer? And whatever happened to the good old days when ass was @$$ and shit was $h!t?
ReplyDeleteNot being a big fan of the c-word I won't repeat it here, but I actually laughed when I read the PDFs of the pages of a DC comic. A BATMAN comic no less.
But how did this happen? How many people signed off on this before it went to press? And how many of these people are going disavow the existence of these words in previous drafts?
If the hammer falls on the poor assistant editor what does that say about the accountability of the higher-ups at DC? Or will the hammer fall on the print for not making their black bars "black enough"?
As long as video games give an interactive muderous experience, I think that the right will leave comics alone. Then again, all that's needed is for someone to show a copy of that Teen Titans book to Bill O'Reilly...
ReplyDeleteYou know, I don't really understand why the Big Two still seem to insist on not tossing a "mature readers" label on anything that doesn't censor curse words or breasts. Then again, if my time at GameStop is any indication, parents don't flip out UNTIL their kids are seeing some boobies.
Gut-wrenching violence is okay - but if it's at Marvel, you can't have a smoke. Sigh.
-M
What a surprise, sloppy editing from DC editorial staff.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about a back lash, those ultra-hypocrites types seem more interested in video games in these days. I will give them credit, they seem to know where the pop culture wind is blowing.
It'll probably hit the radar of the pol's and pundits for a couple of days, but this is pretty much a drop in the pop culture bucket.
ReplyDeleteWhat surprises me is that this issue was green lighted with the black bars. Doesn't DC have agreements with the people who license Batman for merchandising purposes not to do this sort of thing? Shooter nixed some Spiderman stories written by Roger Stern because they would have made the toy and clothing companies howl with outrage.
This is probably the most incisive and insightful comment on this topic thusfar.
ReplyDeleteIt creates in me a desire to read your comics backlog. Where is your bibliography of books you've been involved in?
You read over at The Beat?
ReplyDeleteNat Gertler apparently said in a email that:
"Just having looked at scans over the Internet, it looks to me like the lettering is printed using just black ink, while the bars were put on a different layer using “rich black”, which is a mixture of all four color inks. “Rich black” makes a darker, more vibrant black. On the computer screen, it would all just look black, but the difference will be visible on the printed page"
So...that's a production reason. Still doesn't explain the point you made, Val. Why do the bars in the first place?
Val,
ReplyDeleteI completly agree with your thoughts that we are heading for a media shit storm at the rate comics are going. The Dark Knight is printing money. Miller is starting a mainstream film career. The book is called "All-Star" for Christ's sake. Some parent is going to pick this up for his 11 year old.
Now, I'm a major proponent of free speech. Enough so that I think hate speech needs to be protected. But, what comes with that is the understanding that other people may have different views on what is acceptable to them, and they will speak freely about why certain words are unacceptable, etc. That being said, I think the usage of the word "cunt" in the last few years has risen. I remember watching the last season of The Sopranos and just getting tired of how much it was said. I think it's becuase it's the last true swear. So Frank Miller can feel all "naughty" and "Frank Miller-ish" when he calls (or rather, his unsurly thug) Batgirl (who, I think in this story is like...14? I stopped reading after issue 3) "a cunt." Which is just so juvinile. I went to one of those Joe Quesada panals at the NYCC this year, I the best question asked was by some 17 year old kid. He basically said "Why do you have so many characters swear, even if it's censored." And Joe Q completly agreed with him. It just comes off as lazy.
I never understood the statement that "comics aren't for kids" anymore. People say that like it's a good thing. I sure hope having the "maturity" to read the word cunt in a Batman comic is worth killing the entire medium. in 20 years.
I think the question that really needs examining is if buyers demand sexist and ultra-violent material in their "mainstream" books, or if buyers are buying it because it's what's being published.
ReplyDeleteOr: Do you suppose people would refuse to buy non-sexist, non-violent comics? And what do you suppose (or know) the publishers think?
I think it's less a question of "man, this is not of artistic quality" and more one of "man, is this what people want to buy? crap, man, what the hell is wrong with you people, get a grip guys"
I also think it's worth mentioning that -- at least at my bookstore -- stuff like Runaways and Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane are the most consistent sellers. Marvel Adventures is up there, too, and because they're super-awesome I'm making an effort to push them. Did anyone else read Mark Millar's Superman Adventures a few years back? It was great.
Actually, I'm going to go as far as to say I think the highest quality stuff coming out of Marvel these days is its all-ages stuff. DC, on the other hand, sure likes cutting its line-up of all-ages books. (Man, Justice League Unlimited was a sweet comic.)
Someone suggested it happened because on a computer screen all blacks look the same, but in prints, "brilliant black" and black don't look the same.
ReplyDeleteI know some hard-core conservatives who liked Watchmen because it was plausible to read Rorschach as the hero who takes down the liberal fantasy-land with the truth. (but Moore declaimed that as his intention, so they accepted that was just their read)
I also really don't think Palin or Mccain are going to make naughty funnybooks any more of an issue.
But it is too bad that Miller's Dark Knight has gone from telling little kids not to swear to Goddamn Batman.
All Star Superman was pretty much all ages. I dropped ASBAR after it was clear it wasn't the ASSup analog.
I hope ASWW isn't in ASBARS vein.
Its interesting too to note the old profanity filters just did
ReplyDelete&%(&*%&* (%^%$#%^*&!!!
and now we tend to get
&*%^-you, you &^^#ing #%%$&-head!
and everyone knows what the *particular* profanity is.
1. This isn't a big deal. And apparently ASBAR is making good sales.
ReplyDelete2. I'd let my kids read Frank Miller over the Bible any day of the week. Isn't there a massive genocide in the opening chapters, not to mention gang rape and tons of incest? But at least it tells us what happens to Jews who denied Christ that died in the Holocaust...
3. DC or Marvel would wet their pants if there was an actual stink raised over this because it meant kids were actually reading comics. The Jesus freaks are too busy attacking video games and keeping orphans out of the hands of loving gay couples.
Looks like you're the one on the witch hunt, Val. What is that, your "public enemies" mug shots at the top of the post? Who's the shrill denouncer here?
ReplyDeleteWow...the paranoid liberal meltdown is in full swing now.
Or maybe the accountability should go back to Frank freaking Miller who single-handedly pissed his comic career down his leg and what could've been a fantastic all-star book.
ReplyDeleteI am with you. I live in dread for the day that some parent group really looks at these comics and starts getting appalled and the media descends in a feeding frenzy. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. I thought it would over Identity Crisis, which was being sold at my local grocery store, in a spinner rack.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's a good thing, mind you, but with these books on the racks in places like Borders with the Disney comics, it seems to me that an uproar is inevitable.
While this doesn't excuse DC for it's... (at best) blatant editorial confusion. I think you over-estimate the possibility of a second comics McCarthy era. And not so much because the Religious Right and Fox News are crazy reactionaries... but because there's no money in it, and more importantly comics aren't universal enough to drum up faux outrage over.
ReplyDeleteThe first time Comics got scapegoated, the parental outraged worked because every kid in the country was reading comics. Every parent had interacted with them at some point. They either bought them, gave the kids money to buy them, or saw the kids reading them.
So when they held congressional hearings on why comics were turning kids into deliquents, every parent freaked out because their kid could be corrupted.
But comics just aren't that thing anymore. So if they wanted to manufacture outrage over comics... they'd have to burn a lot of calories to do it. They'd not only have to convince people that comics were dangerous, but that they were dangerous to your kid who doesn't even read comics. And what would they gain from that? Where's the money? Why burn 3000 calories feeding an unnatural anger, when you can burn just 300 calories telling parents that Facebook is turning their kids gay. Ever parent knows their kid is on facebook, but most parents don't really know what facebook is. instant parental panic. Bill-O can lead off shows with it, Ann Coulter can write books, Pat Robertson can ask terrified parents for donations to stop the evil thing in their house right now!
Comics are just too niche to start a panic. Remeber in the late eighties when they tried to start a panic over Dungeons and Dragons. Some high school kids murdered their parents and happened to also be D&D players, and the religious right tried to go into full outrage mode... and it failed miserably. the every day suburban kid didn't play dungeons and dragons, so the moms didn't panic.
That being said, it doesn't mean DC isn't going to end up paying a price for playing the "Im in ur childhoodz, darkening up ur heroez" game. It's just not going to be that one.
I dunno why people are shocked this made it to press. Remember that DC Elseworlds 80-page giant that DC had to pulp a few years ago? That thing had super-baby in a damned microwave oven!
ReplyDeleteWhat's really effed about this is that DC won't get in trouble. The retailer who wasn't paying attention when an 8-year-old bought this book is going to get ARRESTED. Fortunately we have the CBLDF. Nevertheless, agreed DC dropped the ball, but I don't hold it against them for making an R-rated Bat-book. I do fault them for not coming up with their own ratings code for their books like Marvel did when they dropped the CCA. Sooner or later that situation will come to a head (maybe now).
Respectfully, this is a pretty big stretch. I don't think there's a witchhunt of any kind on the horizon. Even considering this latest round of editorial hilarity.
ReplyDeleteAt worst, I think what happens if/when the unsuspecting, parent inadvertently picks something like this up and is offended: the LCS in question ends up on the local nightly news, there's a row, and the LCS in question starts scanning their shipments for awhile and displaying/selling "mature" stuff from behind the counter.
This exact thing happened at the shop I worked at in the mid-80's. We had our "PG-18" stuff for a good long while. Eventually, that stuff started to "disappear" (i.e., make its way back out on the racks). And this was 20 years ago, where people collectively had an actual attention span.
It's a blip...
It's interesting how the wheel turns. Around 1984, Jan Strnad had a cover feature in The Comics Journal where he more or less said the same thing you did Valerie: "What will happen when the Moral Majority finally wakes up and reads this". Adjusted for inflation (Jerry Falwell for James Dobson and Sarah Palin for Anita Bryant) it's more or less what you posit.
ReplyDeleteStrnad's solution was a ratings system on comics. The Big Two balked at this, then accepted it. But here's where it gets interesting: DC decided since it had a 'mature readers' imprint in Vertigo, it didn't need to warn readers about content inside their issues. Look at the respective covers of ASBAR and Teen Titans-- no warning.
By comparison, the latest issue of New Avengers which features a clone of Reed Richards getting tortured by watching his wife get killed and wholesale slaughter or cloned heroes has at least some kind of rating on it. Except it's A which apparently means "for content suitable for 11 years and over".
Nice to see the same questions come up again and again...and that the comics industry once again does a terrible job at policing itself
...I WISH!
ReplyDeletePeople might actually notice that superheroes aren't just characters dusted off for movies. You guys should be praying for this!
People have to care enough about superhero comics to get outraged and right now, unless Naruto is caught huffing paint in a book, parents aren't going to get outraged over a comic character.
ANN COULTER: Let's boycott DC Comics!
PEOPLE: Whuh? DC Who? What is that?
ANN COULTER: DC Comics is trying to poison our children!
PEOPLE: Dude, my kid doesn't even read comics.
ANN COULTER: ...Oh yeah. Kill the gays!
PEOPLE: Now you're talkin'!
I'm not trying to undercut your point, because the possibility is there for the things you mention and it really is a scary prospect. I just think that people aren't going to care enough to start any shit with us when they have bigger targets to smear. As far as I'm concerned, Brad Meltzer got off scott free, so an actual pop culture icon like Frank Miller is safe. Republicans love that guy!
God, what juvenile morons. What the {BLACKBAR} are they thinking?
ReplyDeleteI wondered "Where the hell is the rating" while reading secret six, it was a great read but still I don't want to subestimate the witch hunters, not having a rating category is alike as giving them more fuel to burn you.
ReplyDeleteI'd be more worried by the direction the official DCU comics continue to take. Anyone seen FC: Revelations #2 yet? There's a panel that appears to contain a woman being raped while what I'm assuming is her husband is being forced to watch.
ReplyDeleteNone of these comics have any indication on them that they're for mature readers. I've said this elsewhere, but is it really so difficult to do this?
Some comics publisher, somewhere down the line is gonna reap the whirlwind over this eventually.
The last I heard--and I must be terribly out of date--was that you couldn't use the words 'fuck'--let alone the 'c' word--in any DC Comic that featured either Batman, Superman or Wonder Woman. I'd heard this was a Decree, written in flaming letters on the walls.
ReplyDeleteStill, it's apparent Miller doesn't give a fuck anymore. He doesn't need the money, so he's just seeing how far he can push DC before they finally say 'Ummm...Frank? About this blowjob scene with Wonder Girl?"
Luckily, it seems the freak jobs for Jesus might not be a major force for much longer:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/16132
maybe it was on porpuse
ReplyDeletejust to get in the news and make noise.
Probably my loca comicbook guy
will raise the price of the uncensored version
They still print this because people buy it.
ReplyDeleteA lot.
Might be time I got a new hobby.
I think it might be more of an issue if the sales were there, but these people are more into ripping into video games where the profits are greater. Superhero comics just seem more and more inconsequential.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying it wouldn't happen, but that it wouldn't make as huge a splash if it were something the bulk of people outside the fandom cared about. The fact that these pundits haven't noticed this stuff is kind of telling in a number of ways.
Although maybe some parent somewhere might get on CNN with a complaint at some point. I remember seeing Todd McFarlane defending his dreckish Spawn against an outraged parent on CNN about 10 or more years ago. His defense?
"This is what kids these days like. It's not really me... I'm just providing a product to a marketplace that's demanding it!"
I'm not so sure that defense works anymore.
A superhero movie with that word in it, on the other hand...
But hey, I've been wrong so many times before!
ReplyDeletedo you see the delicious irony of having a post decrying the coming censorship of comics followed by a post decrying the use of "stereotypes"? in other words, you worry about the crackdown while embracing the language of censorship.
ReplyDeleteand you really gotta get over the DC thing. not everything revolves around the assistant editors at DC.
This is pretty much what happened in the 1950s (if you have the chance to read The Ten Cent Plague, I highly recommend it).
ReplyDeleteThere were some very mature - as in intelligent content occasionally dealing with some of the more disturbing aspects of being a passenger on Spaceship Earth - comic books in those days.
And there were also some very "mature" - as in gratuitous sex and violence with no point whatsoever - comic books.
And when the censors came calling, no distinction was made between the two.
I'm not so much opposed to all this nonsense because it might piss off the reactionaries as because it's just shitty writing.
ReplyDeleteDid we need this language in the book? No. Do I defend it? Yes but with a disclaimer. I know this book may not be marketed as a kids title but the problem is comic book sellers at most comic book stores I know wouldn't refuse to sell this book to any kid under 16. And that is the problem right there.
ReplyDeleteAs for someone taking responsibility for this "happening" at DC, I would be sorry to see an assistant editor lose their job for something they have no real responsibility for. That would suck. Let's make Miller the scape goat for all the drek he has put out for the longest while...
ArrrOOOooo!
One could be real cute as well as putting those funny little symbols marks instead of swear words like in all those Spider-Man comics.
ReplyDeleteAnd what still surprises me is that Teen Titans wasn't even the goriest comic marketed to both adults and kids that came out that week.
"Am I a terrible human being for having every issue up to 10 so far? I kind of find the plot behind the book pretty engaging, and the art is beautiful."
ReplyDeleteno, you're not a terrible person.
I don't care for the plot, but Jim Lee usually produces nice art.
Jim Lee, in my opinion, is doing 85% of the work on this book.
I am a parent of kids (ages 6 and 9) who read comics. I buy them and review anything not in the kids section that they are interested in. FWIW, I'm also believe in creative rights.
ReplyDeleteBut the Titans and ASBAR books create a problem, even for a comic fan and responsible parent: DC is creating a situation in which people can't trust them. I don't know what I'm going to get in a title, even if the creative stays the same and especially if it changes.
It'd be easy to say as a parent, you know, I'm just not going to mess with them anymore and stick with another company or stay away from comics altogether.
After reading even the first issue of ASBAR, I hated it enough to never buy another. It was obvious that Miller has no respect for the characters, and I suspect he might even them. At the very least, I can see that Miller thinks he is more important than these characters. I lost interest in his writing more than 15 years ago, when his ego was insufferable even then.
"I've been reading up on this on various sites all day and it still amazes me that the Powers That By At DC let this pass muster in the first place."
ReplyDeleteBack in "the old days" -- uh, 2000, 2001 -- you couldn't even insinuate that Batman had sex with someone. I mean, when they did that thing with him and Talia, that was a big deal. But they actually had a Batman "bible" of what you could and could not do.
One of those things -- you couldn't have Batman or Superman in a "mature readers" book.
Solution: don't put "mature readers" labels on Batman & Superman books, even when they need them. Because if it doesn't have the label, then nobody needs to admit that it's adult material.
I wish I was exaggerating and making this shit up from whole cloth.
"If the hammer falls on the poor assistant editor what does that say about the accountability of the higher-ups at DC?"
ReplyDeleteSeveral years before I was at DC, the hammer did fall on an assistant. Not for letting dirty words show up in a comic, but something along the lines where he was clearly not the only person responsible. But he was the only one fired.
"Doesn't DC have agreements with the people who license Batman for merchandising purposes not to do this sort of thing?"
ReplyDeleteeither the licensors don't know, or don't care -- or, with the success of the Dark Knight, they expect the violence.
Don't know where those "Super Friends" toys with the big feet and the Prozac smiles fit in that equation.
"It creates in me a desire to read your comics backlog. Where is your bibliography of books you've been involved in?"
ReplyDeleteThanks for the kind words.
I've assistant-edited Magnus Robot Fighter, Shadowman, various Disney books, Aquaman, Justice League, Identity Crisis, Batman Black & White, Selina's Big Score, New Frontier, and edited Arkham Asylum Living Hell & Human Defense Corps.
And I'm sure there's ones I'm forgetting.
"Why do the bars in the first place?"
ReplyDeleteI guess it's like on YouTube where they will take cartoon clips and redub them with those censored bleeps -- it looks badass and maybe "funny?"
But why why why put the actual curse words under it? That's asking for trouble, at least from the standpoint of possible production errors.
"That being said, I think the usage of the word "cunt" in the last few years has risen. I remember watching the last season of The Sopranos and just getting tired of how much it was said."
ReplyDeleteI think that word is one of the most ugly and misogynist curse words a person could use. I remember watching Robin Williams on Inside the Actors Studio and he said that was the one word he thought was too ugly for even him to use, that it was so demeaning to women.
"I think the question that really needs examining is if buyers demand sexist and ultra-violent material in their "mainstream" books, or if buyers are buying it because it's what's being published."
ReplyDeleteThat's a good question.
I think that's where DC has blown any pretense to having moral responsibility.
Yeah, if the porn and ultra-violence is made easy to access, I think a lot of people, including underage, will go to it. It's stimulating. It's like a whiff of coke.
Doesn't mean it's right to offer it without any warning that it might not be appropriate to children.
"I'd let my kids read Frank Miller over the Bible any day of the week."
ReplyDeleteA culture built on the precepts of ASBAR and Sin City might be very interesting.
"What is that, your "public enemies" mug shots at the top of the post?"
ReplyDeleteAnd you're ok with an eight-year-old getting either comic and looking at a man with his face ripped off and the (oh, "bleeped-out,' excuse me) word "cunt" constantly directed towards a 14-year-old girl? Sexual language about cutting her (the Batgirl-cunt's) soft flesh to bits? You want a child to read this shit?
If that's "shrill," I'm happy to wear the title.
"Or maybe the accountability should go back to Frank freaking Miller who single-handedly pissed his comic career down his leg and what could've been a fantastic all-star book."
ReplyDeleteComment of the day!
"Comics are just too niche to start a panic. Remeber in the late eighties when they tried to start a panic over Dungeons and Dragons. Some high school kids murdered their parents and happened to also be D&D players, and the religious right tried to go into full outrage mode... and it failed miserably. the every day suburban kid didn't play dungeons and dragons, so the moms didn't panic."
ReplyDeleteTrue, and good points.
But in the 80s they had a thing called "satanic panic," where people were being accused of "satanic" sexual abuse in day care centers, etc and then later it turned out that local hysteria was more the culprit than actual facts.
Didn't stop people from getting arrested, having their lives ruined, etc.
Trust me, it's not DC who would get hurt in a "comics witchhunt" -- it'd be some retailer in a small town.
"in other words, you worry about the crackdown while embracing the language of censorship."
ReplyDeleteno, I think you misunderstand me.
If DC won't put appropriate labels on books that feature ultra-violence and sex -- books that feature characters that they license out for *kid products* -- I want those books off the shelves.
To have a child read a book like Teen Titans featuring a guy being graphically ripped to pieces by a dog -- that's on the same level of awful as a slur. Both should stop, or, in the case of the comic, at least be kept out of the hands of kids. Is that censorship, does it offend libertarian sensibilities?
I think you need some rules, some decorum. No, not everything is ok for children to read.
"not everything revolves around the assistant editors at DC."
ReplyDeleteha! without those assistants, there'd be no DC comics for you to read. So actually -- *everything* revolves around the assistant editors.
So the Cloak and Dagger thing is your first written comic?
ReplyDeleteCool beans.
David
"Sexual language about cutting her (the Batgirl-cunt's) soft flesh to bits? You want a child to read this shit?"
ReplyDeleteOf course not....my point being (which this response backs up) is that you're sounding every bit as reactionary as you imagine the five "mug shot" public figures at the top of the post to be. Which censors are we supposed to fear? Bill O'Reilly or Valerie D'Orazio?
My two cents (which is basically agreeing with what was already said):
ReplyDelete1. There is a saying that those that do not know history are bound to repeat it. Maybe I'm cynical, but I agree with Val. One conservative pundit taking aim on comics on a slow news day and its Seduction of the Innocent all over again.
2. The vibe I get off of Frank Miller, and this is just my opinion, is that he has listened to all the people calling him a genius, and belives it so much, that he thinks any crap he puts out is great literature. Seriously, Death of Martha Washington, DK2 and this is the trifecta of suck. I weep when I think of what he's doing to the Spirit movie.
Looks like you're the one on the witch hunt, Val. What is that, your "public enemies" mug shots at the top of the post? Who's the shrill denouncer here?
ReplyDeleteWow...the paranoid liberal meltdown is in full swing now.
Why does it have to fall upon party lines?
Seriously though, the people Val listed ARE the people who would flip out over something like this (even if, in this case, I would agree with them - the books should be labeled to reflect their contents). These are the people who, as recently as last year, made a big stink about Mass Effect, a game which supposedly contained full-on, interactive sex scenes - when it has little more than PG-13-level nudity.
Seriously though, the folks that Val pictures are often found attacking anything or anyone that doesn't strictly conform to what they see as the ideal (O'Reilly, Dobson, Coulter - I'm looking at you).
It's not fair to turn this into a Rep/Dem debate. Just because the FOX News crowd are the ones that tend to get loud and obnoxious over perceived moral attacks doesn't mean that it's simply liberal and conservative.
Luckily, it seems the freak jobs for Jesus might not be a major force for much longer:
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/16132
In what way does this, or anything in your previous comment, meaningfully contribute to the discussion at hand? All you're doing is swooping in, bashing on Christians (who are NOT accurately represented by the people Val depicts, by the way), and vanishing into the vapor.
-M
Totally agree -- I like ASBAR myself but why write the words then black them out if you DON'T expect trouble?
ReplyDeleteI've been hearing this news all day & it saddens me that Frank Miller is such a hack now. He wrote one of the greatest Batman graphic novels ever & then the "sequel" sucked, really bad! Then they let him write ASB&R?! Why do they worship him?
ReplyDeleteFrank Miller is a @#$%$#!
Batman Fan? Visit The Bat-Blog
http://www.bat-blog.com
I really enjoy ASBARTBW. It's a very funny if distasteful book, and I'd recommend it to people who like South Park, Viz Comic, Austin Powers or Snuff Box.
ReplyDeleteAs to the use of the word "cunt", the British use of the word as a term of abuse is genderless - an extreme form of "bastard", "wanker" of "fucker", and is also used as an exclamation or emphasis "what the cunting fuck is going on here?" - the misogyny is lost on my ears...
Offered as a little something to chew on: there was a blip of controversy in Ireland earlier this year, when an ASBAR story was printed in an anthology that appears on newstands in Ireland and the UK.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_Legends#Controversy
http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2008/pc/pod-v-250408-23m13s-liveline.mp3
"either the licensors don't know, or don't care -- or, with the success of the Dark Knight, they expect the violence.
ReplyDeleteDon't know where those "Super Friends" toys with the big feet and the Prozac smiles fit in that equation."
Thanks for your response. Full disclosure: my father was a buyer for a retail chain, and when you start taking the "lord's name in vain" and dropping c-bombs, people get pissed off, especially in places like the midwest. Nobody cares about Ralph Dibny, but Batman? He moves a lot of t-shirts, and the guys with the money think Comic Books are for kids, no matter how many times Time magazine runs one of those features, "Comics aren't just for kids.
Re: the Public Enemy list--not just for the extreme Right.
ReplyDeleteWasn't it Hilary Clinton, Chuck Schumer and Joe Leiberman who were super-critical about GTA: San Andreas? And Tipper Gore that started a lot of grass-roots momist censorship ('Please won't somebody think of the children!') with the PMRC? Coulter, O'Reilly, sure, but did that story about Palin ever hold any water?
What's going on with the Comics Code Authority anymore?
ReplyDeleteDC still uses it on some mainstream books, but then doesn't on others that seem to match it in continuity.
Reading the lastest Wonder Woman (a *great* issue, btw, and I hope you start a thread about it) and noting certain "thematic elements" I thought "are they keeping this under the CCA?"
And I turned to the cover and they weren't.
I think the decline of the CCA has lead to writers taking it too far. "Hey, no CCA, we can slaughter the wondertwins/have Superboy Prime fry an arm off/show Lois in underwear leg-locking Clark/actually write the bad words and black them out"
"To have a child read a book like Teen Titans featuring a guy being graphically ripped to pieces by a dog -- that's on the same level of awful as a slur. Both should stop, or, in the case of the comic, at least be kept out of the hands of kids. Is that censorship, does it offend libertarian sensibilities?
ReplyDelete"
Valerie -
You absolutely have to censor what goes into the hands of kids. That's called "parenting" - it's an all-day, every day activity.
The ultimate responsibility lies with parents. It's not too much to ask/demand that they are aware of what their kids read, and take an active role in metering or limiting it. Whether they do or not is another matter - sadly some won't and will be the VERY first ones to cry foul when they find out little Johnny or Janey picked up ASBAR because it had Batgirl in it. That's crap and a cop-out.
I understand the desire to see some better controls in the editorial structure for the content of the books, but that's a losing battle. The core audience for comics is not children anymore - they have a special line set aside for that and everyone at DC will point to that if this ever comes up (which it probably won't in any meaningful way).
I learned early on in my parenting journey that if you really want to protect your kids from this kind of stuff, the only sane & realistic way to do it is to do it yourself. Depending on anyone else to help out with that, right or wrong, is a losing battle.
"Trust me, it's not DC who would get hurt in a "comics witchhunt" -- it'd be some retailer in a small town."
ReplyDeleteActually, that's a totally fair point that I didn't really consider. Something like this could get out of hand on a smaller micro level, and peoples lives get ruined either way.
And I vaguely remember the satanic scare. As much as a seven year old who watched an inordinate amount of news could. But in fairness, I definitely remember many times when I was older and still living in Tulsa Oklahoma people explaining to me that the city wasn't seeing the prosperity it wanted because Satan-worshipers were conspiring against the city.
David Cross also has some really funny satan worshiping stories.
Frank Miller used to be a clever writer, but there's nothing clever about his work in ASBAR. The man should be banned from the industry and left to write what he's clearly honing his skills for.
ReplyDeleteBondage/Rape/Torture Superhero Fan Fiction.
Even better would be if everyone boycotted the Spirit movie to protest Frank's asinine behavior.Perhaps THAT would convince the powers that be that he's nothing more than a cheap hack anymore.
First:
ReplyDeleteMark (aka mengblom) I know you're a conservative. Everyone who goes to your blog knows you're a conservative. Now everyone here knows you're a conservative.
While I do agree that there are more people than Val pictured that could flip out over something like this (as already pointed out ably by Bad Wolf further up the string), I don't see how you can think this is about censorship.
Honestly, I'd rather have parental warnings than wholesale censorship or, even worse, the VERY easy decision that you know, as a parent, you can make: just don't buy it.
Second:
I hope you'll forgive a bit of rambling, but here's where I think this an issue, and it's already been pointed out.
It is VERY EASY for a parent to simply decide, "eh it's not worth it" when buying something for his/her child. You may say, "Well, what's the harm in that? That's the way capitalism should work!"
And you're right.
Here's the issue, though. If it works that way in this case, we're talking about a significant market loss to the funny book industry. We're talking about not hitting a demographic that could have been a primary buying force in the next few year.
Anything that makes a parent say, "You know what? I've been reading some news items about this and it's been on the morning show I watch. Eh. It's not worth it. I'll pick up a picture book instead." It's already a major knock against most comics that they're almost exclusively sold into specialty stores. Why make selling these books harder?
Rich Johnston wrote:
ReplyDelete"If there wasn't a fuss over "Lost Girls" featuring Dorothy, Wendy and Alice..."
No, but All Star Batman and Robin isn't priced over $75 and published in a large format coffee-table book with a slipcover. (at least not until the Absolute edition comes out). I think issues of format and packaging do matter here...
i've been annoyed with this series ever since i heard the phrase "the goddamn batman" it's just bad. shame though, the end of the last issue made it look like it might be going in a positive direction too.
ReplyDeletei don't see any coming witch hunt, the last time there was one against comics it was because of the radical ideas comics were putting out, you know racial acceptance and other crazy jazz like that. the violent and dark comics were just used as a scapegoat.
if they tried anything against comics now there'd be cries of censorship. in the end the worst they could likely do is to get dc and marvel to actually put warning labels on their "darker" comics.
besides right now i think the crazies are too busy being annoyed with a black man running for president to have their attention captured by a comic book that uses swear words.
i don't think dc should put a warning on the comic, i don't think just because it's a comic, or even just because it's batman it's fair to say it's for kids. what i do think is parents should be more active in what they give to their kids, and that parents should decide whats fit for their children.
people seriously need to lay off companies for putting dark things out that kids can get a hold of.
i mean if a parent buys a gun and gives it to a ten year old, it's not the gun maker's fault, and that's far more dangerous than any comic book or videogame.
Even better would be if everyone boycotted the Spirit movie to protest Frank's asinine behavior. Perhaps THAT would convince the powers that be that he's nothing more than a cheap hack anymore.
ReplyDeleteThe book doesn't deserve the attention it would require to boycott it.
'Trust me, it's not DC who would get hurt in a "comics witchhunt" -- it'd be some retailer in a small town.'
ReplyDeleteAt the very least, they'd likely be complicit. I've yet to visit a comic shop that doesn't sell All Star Batman And Robin The Boy Wonder, despite what's long been known about its content.
And so it begins....
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nypost.com/seven/09122008/news/nationalnews/the_caped_cuss_ader_128742.htm
I knew you would bring it back to your personal distaste and vendetta against DC. I like your blog, but your bitterness towards them seems distracting and immature.
ReplyDelete"I knew you would bring it back to your personal distaste and vendetta against DC. I like your blog, but your bitterness towards them seems distracting and immature."
ReplyDeleteIt's my blog, I'm allowed to have opinions, and offering mature-content Batman and Teen Titans comics without warning labels for children is shitty no matter which way you slice it.
If my expression of personal opinions offends you, this is probably not going to be a great blog for you to read.
Not to mention what personal vendetta against DC? She highlights specifics things that are wrong or that give her pause and that makes her anti-DC?
ReplyDeleteAm I anti-DC for pointing out the same things over at my Blog, and to the point where I make fun of old bad comics, be they DC, Marvel, or independents?
Uhm, Greyman, for the record, I'm not conservative. I consider myself libertarian, and I'm not posting as "mengblom".
ReplyDeleteEven if Val does criticize DC more than Marvel, can anyone honestly say that DC doesn't deserve the criticism?
ReplyDeleteBut hey, go ahead and dismiss all of Val's observations just because she's not criticizing Marvel enough.
When I criticize American comics, does that mean I have to balance it by criticizing manga? No, because they aren't the same thing. DC and Marvel are similar, but they aren't the same. Marvel and DC will not always suck at the same time.
Criticizing a republican is not the same as endorsing a democrat. Neither does criticizing one compel or obligate me to criticize the other.
ASBAR has been utter crap from the beginning. Miller hasn't written anything good involving Batman since YEAR ONE. This issue is just another example.
ReplyDeleteWasn't referring to you, Mark.
ReplyDeleteSorry for the confusion.
If you look up the string, you'll see some posts from "mengblom". This is another Mark.
"As to the use of the word "cunt", the British use of the word as a term of abuse is genderless - an extreme form of "bastard", "wanker" of "fucker", and is also used as an exclamation or emphasis "what the cunting fuck is going on here?" - the misogyny is lost on my ears..."
ReplyDeleteThis excuse would hold more water if Frank Miller weren't an American (with a marked propensity for putting whores in his books, no less).
Anyway, I'm falling somewhere between Val and the people saying "not enough kids read comics for this to be a thing". But as far as editorial oversight goes-- I wish both companies would adopt a general standard that their books should be appropriate reading material for anybody roughly the age of the characters. This is already true of Runaways and Young Avengers, there's no reason why it can't also be true of Teen Titans.
DC should just 'tag' their books for reader content. It just might get them MORE readers, and it would CUE parents what NOT to buy by accident for their younger readers.
ReplyDeleteR.
Are you sure Miller didn't mean to write "aunt"?
ReplyDelete