Countdown and Death Of The New Gods were sort of out-of-continuity and/or pointless?
???
"Again, bear in mind thatCountdown only finished last month so Final Crisis was already well underway long before Countdown and although I’ve tried to avoid contradicting much of the twists and turns of that book as I can with the current Final Crisis scripts, the truth is, we were too far down the road of our own book to reflect everything that went on in Countdown, hence the disconnects that online commentators, sadly, seem to find more fascinating than the stories themselves."
"Orion’s appearance on the docks and the Guardians’ response in Final Crisis #1 was written and drawn first. Jim Starlin then created Orion’s death scene in Death Of The New Gods to lead into the War God’s appearance in Final Crisis #1, so we refer back to Jim’s scene in Final Crisis #3. When I wrote that scene, Orion’s terminal injuries were a result of the mysterious bolt of light which Jim hit him with in Death Of The New Gods #6. By the time Countdown #1 came out, I was working on Final Crisis #4 and #5 and JG was drawing #3, so we were already well into our own story and unable to change it to match Countdown."
"What mattered to me was what had already been written, drawn or plotted in Final Crisis. The Guardians didn’t call 1011 when Lightray and the other gods died in Countdown because, again, Final Crisis was already underway before Countdown came out.
"Why didn’t Superman recount his experiences from DOTNG ? Because those experiences hadn’t been thought up or written when I completed Final Crisis #1. If there was only me involved, Orion would have been the first dead New God we saw in a DC comic, starting off the chain of events that we see in Final Crisis. As it is, the best I can do is suggest that the somewhat contradictory depictions of Orion and Darkseid’s last-last-last battle that we witnessed in Countdown and DOTNG recently were apocryphal attempts to describe an indescribable cosmic event."
I'm getting lunch.
My final question --
How soon does Grant Morrison pull a Straczynski in the face of this criticism and blame DCU editorial directly? How soon? I mean, he's already sort of doing it in this Newsarama article, but in a really nice roundabout way...
The numbers are on his side:
ReplyDelete(People who liked Peter Parker & Mary Jane as a couple) > (People who liked Countdown)
Yeah, people find the errors more fascinating...because the story was merely a resounding MEH.
ReplyDeleteThis is why I switched to buying trades.
ReplyDeleteOr, as in the case of Countdown and DotNG, switched to not buying trades.
So essentially - FC #1 was more or less developed out pretty far around late 52 time, and the rest of the series was hashed out well enough where the major movements, themes, beats, whatever were probably accessible.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet two series that were developed during the intervening period with direct lead-in relationship to FC couldn't be synched up so that they at least made some consistent sense?
Oy. I've said before that DC lost its way w/ CD early on, and basically abandoned it. But that shows a stunning lack of caring on the part of editorial. Wow...
Morrison's commentary on all this basically boils down to "yeah, I had my vision set - they did their own thing and it really didn't match up. I just don't bother with it much and neither should you."
This cock-up will make negative Top 5 comics lists in trade rags forever.
Grarggggghhhhhhh *headdesk*
ReplyDeleteThat's really really annoying. still, at least I now have an excuse not to buy the Countdown trades.
(I like continuity. Far too much.)
I keep waiting for him to say: It doesn't have to make sense it's Magic
ReplyDeleteTo think, I used to rave about DC's continuity around the time of Infinite Crisis. Yuck.
ReplyDeleteman, i couldn' read that, but luckily, i couldn't read any of the titles in question, either.
ReplyDeleteSo do you blame the editors who didn't keep Countdown straight with FC, or do you blame Morrison for not bothering to keep things straight with Countdown?
ReplyDelete(Still thinks that the Newsarama story about FC 1 was more interesting that FC 1 itself...)
I re-read that twice and I still don't get it...OH MY GOD MY BRAIN IS GOING TO EXPLODES! God, I hate DC right now. Except for maybe "Batman: RIP" and the return of Spoiler.
ReplyDelete-costa k
fistfightatthearthouse.wordpress.com
"So do you blame the editors who didn't keep Countdown straight with FC, or do you blame Morrison for not bothering to keep things straight with Countdown?"
ReplyDeleteIt is the responsibility of Editorial to keep the continuity straight and to keep the writer(s) informed as to what is going on.
Grant was the mastermind/star of Final Crisis. He was the whole reason the book existed. It was NOT his responsibility to make sure things weren't screwed up with continuity in other mini-series and books. I speak from experience on the editorial side.
His job was to show up, provide the requisite story bibles and scripts and theories and whatnot, and trust that the editorial dept. had his back.
“This is America, and in America if something sucks, you're supposed to be able to get your money back!” –Stan Marsh from South Park: The Passion of the Jew.
ReplyDeleteNuff Said!
And no mentions of his tasteless and insensitive rape comment in that interview?
ReplyDeleteI think editors are just glorified space holders these days.
ReplyDelete"And no mentions of his tasteless and insensitive rape comment in that interview?"
ReplyDeleteI was going to post about it, and then I thought it was all too much for one day.
But in case anybody missed it:
"Once you’ve had the image of Dr. Light hammering away at Sue Dibny’s ruptured rear end burned into your neurons, it’s hard to write him as one more cackling gimmick villain. I thought it was fun to play up his priapic nature and I enjoy writing super villain conversations but yeah, we’re hoping readers will cheer loudly when they see the fate Greg Rucka and the Spectre have in store for randy Arthur Light."
I mean, obviously a woman handling this subject matter wouldn't have framed it in such a cavalier manner. That's why you need more gender balance in superhero writing. I'm not going to harp on it. But I'm disappointed, sure.
Really, that Newsarama interview killed whatever interest I had in Final Crisis in about several different ways.
And what does he refer to that Sue's "rear end" was "ruptured?" What the fuck does *that* mean? Is he referring just to the act of rape itself? Is he insinuating that she had an injury? Is he just trying to be cute?
It's not cute.
I bought the first issue but I think the only way I'm going to understand what's happening in this story is to read the spoilers on the internets after everyone else has figured out what the hell is going on.
ReplyDeleteMy take on the Dibny comment was that GM does not care for IDENTIFY CRISIS most famous/heinous moment?
ReplyDeleteRE Countdown and DotNG: DC could write both of them off as Universe 43.3 tales or something like that. Please.
wow. I am so glad I listened to my spidey sense and did not get Countdown, and any assorted tie-ins. and as for Final Crisis, the description of it did not interest me in the least. and what I have heard so far, doesn't help.
ReplyDeleteThank you for weighing in on the rape comment. I think it's important that we not ignore statements like these and point them out for just how not-ok they are.
ReplyDeleteUnlike Mr. Morrison, I don't find a woman being raped to be an acceptable punchline. My best friend since I was 13 was raped by her step-father since the age of 5 until she had the courage not not come back to her parents' trailer ever when she was in college and figured out a way to put herself through school.
It's not funny to me. At. All.
This is why I don't read these horrible things.
ReplyDelete"Things are going to get nastier and grubbier and scarier before it’s over, just like in the real world."
ReplyDeleteUgh. I'm so glad I'm not reading this. I remember reading an interview with Morrison a couple of years ago where he mentioned how hard it was to write the iconic heroes for too long because eventually you repeat yourself or you break them.
I think he's about to break the entire DCU. I know that's supposed to be the point of this, but I don't think he (or anyone in editorial) has any idea of how to put it back together.
And yeah, there were plenty of ways to reference Sue Dibny's rape that didn't reduce it to a crude and humorless joke. One would think he'd be aware enough to try to find one.
Man, I'm glad I assumed Countdown and Death of the New Gods was BS and skipped them from the beginning. ;)
ReplyDeleteIt's like watching a cat screw a bull. You just have to shrug and move to the left...
ReplyDeleteWhat?
ReplyDeleteI was prepared to accept DotNG into continuity and ignore Countdown entirely. No I don't have a clue what the heck is supposed to be going on.
Why is the 5th world basically composed of all the same 4th world characters, except Granny Goodness is Missy Elliot now? Shouldn't the 5th world have completely new gods, like the 4th did from the 3rd? Or at least merged Gods like the ending of DoTNG implies?
At the end of DOTNG, the Source basically tells Superman that, no, none of this shit makes sense, but he "understand in the coming months." At this point, that seems impossible.
I think Morrison's comment about the Dr. Light / Sue Dibny thing was more an euphemism of how ugly and ruined both characters both were after that atrocity. It is like it's burned into your mind and you can't get away from it.
ReplyDeleteI think he was trying to be kinda "PC" and trying not to be in-fighting with Metzler or whoever wrote Identity Crisis.
Better he had said nothing, though.
******
In regards to the continuity gaffes and scheduling mess ups - this is why you don't solicit books until they're completed in their correct manner, number one. Oh, and you have your readers who AREN'T attached to the project - be it the assistant editors or whomever - read the stuff and look for the mistakes that you as editors have gotten too close to the project to see. We all do it. It's human nature. Fresh eyes, people. Fresh eyes.
Number two, you wouldn't have these problems if the Big Two stopped trying to tie in the entire line of books into every event, so that writers aren't constantly getting their toes stepped on. Apparently nobody working in editorial at these two companies has heard the old adage, "Too many cooks can spoil the stew."
Ah well, such is life.
Good God, this is epic fail that buries the frickin' needle. Whatever mild interest I had in Final Crisis is dead. I'm just going to keep my head down, buy my Blue Beetle trades, Starman, and Kirby Omnibuses and wait for all this to blow over.
ReplyDeleteIn short, DC needs Final Crisis to establish continuity, while it breaks the continuity.
ReplyDeleteLife is better when we don't care so much about continuity. As a fan, we have discontinuity regardless of what the comics themselves do, for the movies if nothing else.
It's like believing in Santa Claus and trying to reconcile the fact that Santas litter the stores and streets.
Wow...usually it takes a year or two before the wacky continuity errors pop up after these DC Crisis/Zero Hour/Continuity Fixit series...this time around, the errors are happening before the series is done.
ReplyDeletecosta said:
ReplyDelete"...Except for maybe "Batman: RIP" and the return of Spoiler."
Yeah, as for the latter part, enjoy it while you can. Chuck Dixon recently said on his forum that he's no longer employed by DC in any capacity.
I'd be less concerned about the errors if I'd liked the book.
ReplyDeleteI mean, come on--his proof of how edgy and groundbreaking the book is is that a hero got killed? They did that in Crisis 20-plus years ago. And they've been doing it ever since. And it doesn't last, even when they swear it will. Being dead in comics today is like getting a new costume was back in the bronze age, just an easy attention grabber.
I'd be less concerned about the errors if I'd liked the book.
ReplyDeleteI mean, come on--his proof of how edgy and groundbreaking the book is is that a hero got killed? They did that in Crisis 20-plus years ago. And they've been doing it ever since. And it doesn't last, even when they swear it will. Being dead in comics today is like getting a new costume was back in the bronze age.
The worst part of the Countdown/Final Crisis thing is not that Orion dies twice. It's that if the big mystery in FC is "Who killed Orion!?" then if Countdown is in any way real, we already know. We watched him stumble off into a garbage heap, and indeed, SUPERMAN not only watched this, but basically said "ahhh, let him go die guys, it's his time."
ReplyDeleteThese comments are confusing me. Final Crisis is bad because Countdown couldn't be bothered to synch up with it? What the huh?
ReplyDeleteAnd for the confused: Morrison's really clearly criticizing Identity Crisis. Read just about any Morrison comic ever to find out his opinion on exploitation being passed off as sophistication.
Yes, it is rather confusing, isn't it? Personally I like to judge stories on their own merits and not on whether they chime precisely with DC's deeply convoluted and burdensome continuity, especially when said continuity is clearly down the toilet.
ReplyDeleteYes, it is rather confusing, isn't it? Personally I like to judge stories on their own merits and not on whether they chime precisely with DC's deeply convoluted and burdensome continuity, especially when said continuity is clearly down the toilet.
ReplyDeleteI've never entirely understood this mentality; how can one enjoy a story on its own merits when enjoyment and understanding of said story is dependent upon the stories and continuity that come before and built up to it?
I agree that continuity is convoluted and can make huge messes, but *not* following continuity in a continuous universe makes the mess even worse. Unless each story is set in its own universe with its own continuity, stories should and must follow what came beforehand. Or at least come up with a good retcon. ;)