tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post8697591713476276145..comments2024-01-14T11:45:23.991-05:00Comments on Occasional Superheroine: That's A Bigga Pizza Pie!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-82923801612727578032008-09-15T22:54:00.000-04:002008-09-15T22:54:00.000-04:00Smart stoners behaving stupidly in a sub-mental mo...Smart stoners behaving stupidly in a sub-mental movie.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17723952510039418615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-82701734022314987232008-09-11T19:11:00.000-04:002008-09-11T19:11:00.000-04:00When I was a kid, my mother, born in Germany in 19...When I was a kid, my mother, born in Germany in 1937, hated "Hogan's Heroes". Not so much so that she wouldn't let us watch it, but she hated it, because it made the Germans look so stupid. Year's later, I read MAD Magazine's parody, and discovered another reason. (That said, Robert Clary was a Holocaust survivor, John Banner was a Jewish refugee, Werner Klemperer was a jewish refugee who served in the U.S. Army during World War II...)<BR/><BR/>Most of the German stereotypes in use today are mostly Nazi stereotypes. One could argue that making fun of something horrendous is a coping mechanism. It doesn't blot out the horror, but helps us deal with it. (See M*A*S*H, for example.)<BR/><BR/>I judge stereotypes by how hurtful they are. Exageration (especially in cartoons) is often required. When does it cross the line? When it upsets someone. <BR/><BR/>I like "My Cousin Vinny". The writing is well-done, the Southern and New York characters are comical but not offensive, and the main actors do a terrific job. For the record, the box office hit I find most offensive is "Pretty Woman", which takes Cinderella and turns her into a whore. But that's just me.<BR/><BR/>Do we laugh with the stereotypes, the broad characters which reflect a part of ourselves? Or do we laugh at the stereotypes, feeling a little bit superior? <BR/><BR/>And Valerie, I've seen your name, and I never once thought of your ancestry. I judged you by what you said, how you acted, but I never judged your name (or your gender).Torsten Adairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01003810809542196460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-62283831278765038922008-09-11T18:40:00.000-04:002008-09-11T18:40:00.000-04:00http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_AlbanoI'm not def...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Albano<BR/><BR/>I'm not defending said stereotype, I just think you should remember where you're pointing your finger.moustachedotorghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02943489561711930814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-3531420358210555622008-09-11T11:50:00.000-04:002008-09-11T11:50:00.000-04:00By the way, I loved My Cousin Vinnie as did most o...By the way, I loved My Cousin Vinnie as did most of my friends. It may have something to do with living in the South.<BR/><BR/>One stereotype that I've noticed in recent years is that if there's a character with a centuries-old warrior tradition/destiny, they're invariably either generic white or Asian--Samurai Girl, Juniper Lee, American Dragon, etc. Not black, Latino, Native American, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-6203766508852549812008-09-11T11:44:00.000-04:002008-09-11T11:44:00.000-04:00It's been argued that the supernatural sitcoms of ...It's been argued that the supernatural sitcoms of the sixties were partly a reaction to ethnic humor becoming unacceptable: Rather than show the Wacky Italians (and Italian-American groups have protested very loudly against their portrayals in the past), do the wacky Addams family! You can't write about intermarriage but what about a mortal marrying a witch! And so on.<BR/><BR/>As a couple of people noted, Russian mobster seems to have become just as much a stereotype--or more likely, Russian mobster with KGB ties. <BR/><BR/>It's always fascinated me how detente, glasnost and even the collapse of the USSR have had so little effect on how comics handle Communist villains: We got "the hardliner who rejects detente and hates the USA," then the hardliner who rejects perestroika and hates the USA, then the hardliner who wants to restore the USSR, and then the hardliner turned Russian mobster.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-3590776250815992482008-09-10T23:49:00.000-04:002008-09-10T23:49:00.000-04:00Technically, the leads of Harold and Kumar are "sm...Technically, the leads of Harold and Kumar are "smart" stoners. The movies go to great lengths to show they are not idiots.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-82835250704685707292008-09-10T19:13:00.000-04:002008-09-10T19:13:00.000-04:00I think it's wrong when a writer assembles a chara...I think it's wrong when a writer assembles a character out of cliches and stereotypes no matter what the nationality or ethnicity is supposed to be. It's poor writing, shows a lack of creativity and definitely a lack of empathy.<BR/><BR/>Those last two characteristics are necessities when writing. Creativity is obvious, but empathy allows a writer to become the character and define him or her more sympathetically, giving them wants and needs rather than just using them to fulfill a plot mandate- for which any old stereotype will do.<BR/><BR/>But yeah, I do wonder why is it okay to do things like say, "That's a bigga pizza pie." I don't lump <I>The Sopranos</I> in with this stuff because the writing fulfills my criteria for good writing. It's one of the few Mafia-related fictions that approaches the characters as human beings beyond their Mafia positions. Although you chose to illustrate your entry with the one character who hews closest towards being clownish at times.<BR/><BR/>But if all a comic writer can do is see the Mafia aspect and then create crap Italian-American characters without the depth of those on <I>The Sopranos</I>, just regurgitating the violent aspects... well, that's just weak. Especially if you read the comic and every Italian-American is a Mafia member.<BR/><BR/>You know, I generally love Spike Lee's movies but he tends to make his Italian-American characters brutish to the point of cartoons at times. To me, this is a weakness in an otherwise brilliant body of work. And it irks me.<BR/><BR/>I also agree with a lot of the comments here about Asians, the French and Southerners. Even in liberal movies like <I>Crash</I>, Asians tend to be used as comedic relief. Lots of broken English screaming. It's reached the point where dreck like <I>Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle</I> is seen as a positive step forward!<BR/><BR/>I mean, people are so sick of being portrayed as angry laundry shop owners or neutered super-geniuses they're actually <I>happy</I> to be portrayed as stoner morons, as if the world needed yet another movie celebrating and worshipping Stoopid Doods and their low-brow scatalogical concerns. <BR/><BR/>Has our art and culture devolved to the point where it's considered progress to exchange one set of hate-filled stereotypes for a more affectionate one that's no less reductive and negative?<BR/><BR/>Whoopee, ain't stereotypes grand?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17723952510039418615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-775348348715486862008-09-10T14:24:00.000-04:002008-09-10T14:24:00.000-04:00Val I think you make a good point in comparing thi...Val I think you make a good point in comparing this to Memín...but as far as other groups go I don't think family Guy pulls too many punches. They've had offensive jokes about all groups.Ozzie Optichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18347072481344026470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-19397729797929792432008-09-10T11:34:00.000-04:002008-09-10T11:34:00.000-04:00I would say it's just as common and acceptable to ...I would say it's just as common and acceptable to stereotype and mock the French as well as Italians. It's not as popular, but the same also tends to be the case for Russians as well.Maddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06719755856764289612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-6432596523280450582008-09-10T11:26:00.000-04:002008-09-10T11:26:00.000-04:00When you condemn Austin Powers...When you condemn Austin Powers...Rich Johnstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08094139982498797455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-57720044561656909632008-09-10T09:18:00.000-04:002008-09-10T09:18:00.000-04:00The recent Batman anime DVD had Russian mobsters t...The recent Batman anime DVD had Russian mobsters too.pdughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09832284495239324375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-64059181790464647612008-09-10T08:37:00.000-04:002008-09-10T08:37:00.000-04:00To be fair Mario also know as jumpman was done `cu...To be fair Mario also know as jumpman was done `cuz<BR/>technical handicaps of the arcade machines<BR/><BR/>instead of hands mittens, cap instead of hair etc.algeyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12979345864674820689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-53638840742151104632008-09-10T08:03:00.000-04:002008-09-10T08:03:00.000-04:00I too have noticed that Italian-American stereotyp...I too have noticed that Italian-American stereotypes are a bit more common in public. As an Italian-American cartoonist however, it has never been a problem for me yet. Truth be told, in the past I have contributed much to the stereotype. Great blog by the way.Joe Chiappettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15738854036752666043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-69544445126999375962008-09-10T00:58:00.000-04:002008-09-10T00:58:00.000-04:00--But...did I actually see a complaint against Mar...--But...did I actually see a complaint against Marvel amidst the usual hating on DC?--<BR/><BR/>Huh, I must have missed that one..<BR/><BR/>Course, when I think about it, when I've seen Marvel roll out some of the asians they do at times I usually end up rolling my eyes and putting the book down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-66582522994080442982008-09-09T23:47:00.000-04:002008-09-09T23:47:00.000-04:00Serious answer: its the same reason its ok to make...Serious answer: its the same reason its ok to make fun of the Irish. The reason its "ok" to make fun of Italians and Irish on TV is because of an unspoken (and often unknown) understanding that these stereotypes are so completely outrageous and untrue that its absurd. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who will point to Fat Tony or Mario and go "see? SEE? THEM ITALIANS IS ALL LIKE THIS!" the same way you have people point to Jewish, Hispanic or Black stereotypes in the media. This unspoken understanding comes from the history of American entertainment all the way back to vaudeville. Vaudville actors were mostly minorities, especially immigrants. Irish, Italian, Jewish and Black stereotypes were among the most common form of vaudville humor, and often performed by the minorities themselves. It was a way to survive. If swallowing your pride and donning black face and singing "Danny Boy" in Yiddish while eating a cannoli would get an actor room and board, so be it. When vaudeville was replaced with movies and tv, the Irish and Italian vaudvellians quickly made the jump to the new entertainment industry. Nearly all of the early sitcoms are based on old stereotypes of Irish and Italian families from theater. Even today, just compare The Simpsons to a family from an Irish play. Of course the Simpsons aped this because they were aping earlier sitcom family troupes., the same way the McFarlane crap just rips off Simpsons family troupes. They're so ingrained we don't even recognize them as being stereotypes anymore. The entertainers of the two ethnic groups, who up until the 20th century weren't even considered "white" (just look at newspaper cartoons from the late 1800s up until the 20s), first used these stereotypes to survive, and then subversively used them to advertise themselves as normal Americans. Suddenly all the old stereotypes and traditions of Irish and Italian-americans were suddenly identified with all Americans. So the media then created these super-stereotypes as placeholders to represent these minority groups, and they were accepted because the Irish and the Italian-Americans were now "one of us". The Italian and Irish-Americans who get offended by these more recent stereotypes are usually younger and so don't have the same cultural or historical context for their creation. Note: I'm not saying that these stereotypes are good or bad (I totally believe that people have a right to be offended by anything they want, and there's good reason to be offended by some of these), just that there's historical context for why you get less people up in arms about Mario than blackface or hooknoses. Recently, this understanding has been breaking down on both sides, as is natural. Both because its offensive and because its now boring cliche. The more recent backlash against these new stereotypes of Italian-Amemericans is completely a completely natural step in the process that all stereotypes and cultural groups go through. Except the Irish. For some reason we still don't give a crap about the drunk jokes.Mike Joffehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15593653995005430033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-61473817260586051812008-09-09T21:45:00.000-04:002008-09-09T21:45:00.000-04:00Well, Valerie, I am French and I understand your p...Well, Valerie, I am French and I understand your point of view on offending stereotypes, especially coming from the Americans.<BR/><BR/>You know what is worst, being French in a foreign country, like me... you have to face them way too often!LeDidolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09247400182587082158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-66746689496381131342008-09-09T18:20:00.000-04:002008-09-09T18:20:00.000-04:00like others have said, it's not just the italians ...like others have said, it's not just the italians that have stereotypes you're just sensitive to the one's of your own group.<BR/>honestly, there's a lot of ignorance out there.<BR/><BR/>and i don't see anything wrong with giving a gangster an italian name, i've never thought of falcone as some horrible stereotype, he isn't written with a goofy accent, him and his ilk just seem and homage to the godfather and such.<BR/><BR/>and if you're writing organized crime you really only have three ways you can go. (or so it seems)<BR/>1. italian<BR/>2. russian<BR/>3. asian<BR/><BR/>or those any more or less offensive? and the asian gangster's are often ridiculous nearly anime characters.<BR/><BR/>and don't worry val, everyone hates my cousin vinny.synthicidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08563366589771825091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-2014918076135597622008-09-09T18:05:00.000-04:002008-09-09T18:05:00.000-04:00Huh. Yeah, I never really thought about it.It's fu...Huh. Yeah, I never really thought about it.<BR/><BR/>It's fun to bond with other Italians though, over the fairly universal experiences of constant family parties, grandmas who always made you eat too much, and those relatives whose hands never stop waving around while they talk.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13230370185102441456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-10014490026273440232008-09-09T17:45:00.000-04:002008-09-09T17:45:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tucker Stonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10793079084633425826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-82008315554963522992008-09-09T17:12:00.000-04:002008-09-09T17:12:00.000-04:00"But why is it acceptable with Italians?"Because i..."But why is it acceptable with Italians?"<BR/><BR/>Because italians do it better, capisc?<BR/><BR/>And honestly we dont give a fuck, it's only fiction.<BR/><BR/>Great blog!Bapho aka Davide Costahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09455994536723183095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-67135363500587337822008-09-09T15:49:00.000-04:002008-09-09T15:49:00.000-04:00Oddly enough I found "Growing up Gotti" more offen...Oddly enough I found "Growing up Gotti" more offensive than any fictional portrayal of Italians. Now THAT made us look bad!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-63981045546540988302008-09-09T15:25:00.000-04:002008-09-09T15:25:00.000-04:00snow princess, thank you for illustrating my point...snow princess, thank you for illustrating my point with you post.Ric Ranthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08659581882540691723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-79808150962159373522008-09-09T14:59:00.000-04:002008-09-09T14:59:00.000-04:00Well, speaking as a German with some French, Itali...Well, speaking as a German with some French, Italian, Czech and probably Polish ancestors, I'd say part of the problem is that one tends to be more sensitive about stereotypes about one's own group. So of course you are more bothered about mafiosi and whatever stereotypes Super Mario propagates apart from "Italians speak with a funny accent" (which at first blush is not really that different from "Englishmen/Scots/Australians speak with a funny accent") and "speakers of English as a second language make grammatical mistakes" than e.g. about Germans being portrayed either as goose-stepping Nazis (any number of comicbook villains) or lederhosen-wearing sausage-suckers (Uter in The Simpsons). <BR/><BR/>As for the strength of the mafioso stereotype, there are a couple of factor to consider here:<BR/><BR/>Yes, there is organized crime connected to other ethnic groups in the US and elsewhere, but for the most part it is not that well known as the mafia. Lots of people will be familiar with terms like "omertà", "capo di tutti capi" and "consigliere" (even if they can't pronounce them correctly), but not the equivalent terms from e.g. the Russian mob. Part of the reason is of course that the media have been on working on mafia themes a lot longer and better (The Godfather is a bestselling novel and a trilogy of classic movies), another is that Al Capone, Lucky Luciano et al. became celebrities, iconic even in real life (there's probably dozens of restaurants called "Al Capone" or "Casa nostra" etc.).<BR/><BR/>Another factor is probably that part of the mystique of the mafia is its family-based structure, which gives it a more "cosy" image than e.g. the Russian mobs, even though that may not actually be justified in real life. Belonging to the mafia can easily be portrayed as belonging to a real or surrogate family. Also, since a lot of the stereotypes about the mafia hearken back to Prohibition days, there's possibly even a bit of nostalgia involved. How many comicbook mafiosi tend to be dressed in pre-World War 2 clothes? And with stuff like the "kiss of death" etc., there is a bit of ritual involved to spice things up. You also get quite a bit of that with East Asian criminal societies (Yakuza, Triads), who probably are almost as omnipresent as the mafia in present-day mass entertainment.<BR/><BR/>Which brings me to another point: they probably could have done a "what if the Jetsons were Japanese?" parody very much like the one you described with peole talking like Yakuza thugs without that many people batting an eybrow. If they want to do an organized crime story in certain fields of comic-books, they'll throw in a Chinese, Japanese or South-East Asian mob. Just look at the Asian characters in the Marvel's mutant books - the Yashida family (to which Sunfire, the Silver Samurai and Wolverine's late fiancee Mariko belong) is Yakuza-connected, Yukio used to work for a Yakuza, Karma's uncle is a mobster, Lady Deathstrike's father was a crimelord.Menshevikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07112873248418375924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-73770468844546578002008-09-09T14:21:00.000-04:002008-09-09T14:21:00.000-04:00Thank you so much for this. As an Italian America...Thank you so much for this. As an Italian American( on top of that I'm also from Brooklyn!) I find these stereotypes to be very hurtful. I've been on interviews with major companies and they have asked me if I saw the previous night's Sopranos. The reason why this is acceptable is because a large of Italian EMBRACE the stereotype. They like to think they are on the Sopranos or Goodfellas. We need to show more postive figures in the media.Frank the Sainthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08440367038220087501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-45889375539717057592008-09-09T14:01:00.000-04:002008-09-09T14:01:00.000-04:00Noone clings to negative stereotypes about Italian...Noone clings to negative stereotypes about Italian-Americans more than Italian-Americans, present company excluded. <BR/><BR/>Mario's character isn't really negative or stereotypical. Yes he does have the accent, but he's not a meathead, doesn't eat pizza, isn't in the mafia, doesn't have frosted tips and a fake tan, doesn't call blacks mulianos, etc. That's real talk. <BR/><BR/>If you are really eager to be offended you can manufacture a outrage about it I guess, but it seems gentle in comparison to what some other ethnicities have to deal with.philiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01251165633972808641noreply@blogger.com