tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post630211332632205702..comments2008-02-26T21:19:20.106-05:00Valerie D'Oraziohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10083468076834391732noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-18028450723793272982008-02-26T21:19:00.000-05:002008-02-26T21:19:00.000-05:00Gray said: <BR/><BR/><I>I just... I just kinda want a character reason to pull for her, not a social justice reason first.</I><BR/><BR/>Aha!<BR/><BR/>I <I>knew</I> I was beating around the bush about something, and that's exactly it! Thanks for nailing it.Rob S.http://www.blogger.com/profile/07331286524477806963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-53622359475645045792008-02-26T20:55:00.000-05:002008-02-26T20:55:00.000-05:00On the subject of Montoya in the mask in terms of its subtext of facelessness... when did we all decide that subtext is bad? No, i don't mean gays and lesbians SHOULD be faceless, but rather, as recognition of the maligned status in our society, Rucka wrote this as a form of social commentary, one he intends to expand upon? I mean, Rucka has stuck to his guns when it comes to Renee and her sexuality and treated her with a maturity and respect that is woefully lacking in the writing for a good amount of gay and bisexual, so I don't find it unbelievable that he may have had Renee "lose her face" in a sense to show that a character can rise above this societal invisibility and embrace who she really is.<BR/><BR/>The real paradox of the Question is that, in becoming the character, I feel Renee as a character has never been more self-aware and confident. sure they didn't need to give her superhero status, but it's a editorial and creative choice which I feel was done in a surprisingly adept way (think about how involved her story in 52 was compared to, say, Wonder Woman's). <BR/><BR/>Which is, admittedly, what I took from her entire storyline in 52: she just came from a serious trauma that shook her morally, character-wise, and totally destabilized her. It took her "asking the question" of who she is to regain her confidence. And she's been just as strong as she ever has been (as well as out) and even more high profile since then, so I don't feel her becoming the Question really hurt her.<BR/><BR/>Truth be told, I'm not sure I buy a huge amount of subtext in the spin, simply because the stories told using Renee becoming/as the Question have been so damned good. Maybe this is just a testament to Rucka as a writer being able to feed me social messages without me realizing it, but whatever floats your boat.<BR/><BR/>Honestly, aside from it being a worthy social cause to champion (which might by itself not be enough), I can't say I really care that I'll never see a Batwoman book, especially one that seems so... inexplicable. The total left-fieldness of it, plus the fact she wasn't terribly well-developed in 52 makes me really question her worth as a character (vs. a political/social statement). I'm willing to chalk it up to simple lack of space in 52, but seriously, they got me to care about lame characters like Rip Hunter and Skeets. SKEETS, A FLYING, GOLD, WISE-CRACKING ROOMBA FROM THE FUTURE. <BR/><BR/>True, maybe Greg Rucka or someone else will have a totally golden origin for Kane as Batwoman, but until I see it, I wont cry for something that didn't really feel to begin with. Of course I'll give a Batwoman series a shot, I just... I just kinda want a character reason to pull for her, not a social justice reason first.Grayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03219062609230254018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-51884276682623270602008-02-26T20:27:00.000-05:002008-02-26T20:27:00.000-05:00Devin Grayson is kind of like Hillary Clinton in that she is a capable woman in her field who is the target of a lot of senseless personal hatred that is not her fault, yet has also made some astonishingly bad decisions which have alienated the more reasonable members of her intended audience as well. Who can forget the "A Very Special Damage" storyline during her Titans run? And don't get me started on what happened to Nightwing on that rooftop in his solo book. <BR/><BR/>Still, I remember that she got shafted during her New York mob storyline in NIGHTWING. I mean, could DC editorial possibly have given her any LESS support? She had NW deep undercover in the mob and donning a different costumed identity (Renegade) and none of Dick's numerous guest appearances (with the exception of Simone's BIRDS OF PREY) even addressed Devin's storyline. Dick generally appeared in those books in his normal Nightwing outfit. I mean, when Spider-Man had his black costume or Superman his red-and-black insignia over extended periods in their own books, they appeared in those outfits in their guest appearances in Avengers or JLA or Wonder Woman or wherever. With Dick, it was like Devin's story was an Elseworlds saga for all the play it got elsewhere.notinthefacehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12537680561821564347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-59903657028498227622008-02-26T12:23:00.000-05:002008-02-26T12:23:00.000-05:00Now I wanted to see what Kevin had posted. I love reading hateful bile so I can laugh at it!<BR/><BR/>On the subject of Devin Grayson, she's hit or miss for me. Fact is, her JLA/Titans and her run on the Titans got me into comics to begin with. As such, there are times when I like her (Titans!) and times when I don't (Nightwing!). That being said, I'd like to think the real problem here is that she was writing a Batwoman ongoing and was never told it was canceled.Lewis Lovhaughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06724769374732321363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-63549436705883498362008-02-26T11:48:00.000-05:002008-02-26T11:48:00.000-05:00Teresa, thanks hugely for the clarification - now that there's an explanation, yeah, I totally agree that there's a subtext there. But, like you say, I don't think the subtext is ignored so much as it's part of the themes Rucka is playing with.<BR/><BR/>I really hope Batwoman sees the light of day eventually, because unlike Montoya she's closeted, and that creates an interesting identity matrix that totally screws up the standard secret identity formula (in a good way), because you have people who think she's Paris Hilton, people who know she's gay, people who know she dresses up in a fetish suit and beats the shit out of criminals at night, and people who know both. I mean, the arguments about Batman and the mask dialed up to eleven -- which one is the real Kate Kane? It'd be interesting.Davidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12273284254602286534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-45691696417879392352008-02-26T11:41:00.000-05:002008-02-26T11:41:00.000-05:00To Pedro and others about the mask,<BR/><BR/>Hi! I'm a lesbian! I thought I'd let you know that the term "lesbian invisibility" is a term that is widely used among lesbians in relation to their position in society. It has specific meaning within our community. That's why the mask is significant.<BR/><BR/>However, I'm also a Chicana, and the mask is significant within Mexican culture as well. So I get that the mask has other valences and meanings. I also like the irony of a lesbian character having a mask because frankly, I don't think our society is particularly liberated where gays are concerned, so having a superhero with mixed or ambiguous symbology seems more "real" to me than having a SuperLesbian character that's all about empowerment. I love the Question and I hope she gets her own series.Teresahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13656729462144768052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-16553458899110718282008-02-26T10:12:00.000-05:002008-02-26T10:12:00.000-05:00Mordicai,<BR/><BR/>Right the first time -- it's "affected". And hey, at least you know there <I>is</I> a difference. And knowing is half the battle.<BR/><BR/>Go Joe!Rob S.http://www.blogger.com/profile/07331286524477806963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-74679519658180241972008-02-26T08:52:00.000-05:002008-02-26T08:52:00.000-05:00Wow. First search result for jubilee isn't Buckingham Palace, or dictionary.com, or anything you'd expect.<BR/><BR/>It's the Wikipedia for Jubilation Lee.<BR/><BR/>Oh, Internet nerds.Davidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12273284254602286534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-73128819518733803272008-02-26T08:28:00.000-05:002008-02-26T08:28:00.000-05:00<I>You mean Lindsay McCabe?</I><BR/><BR/>I think so. For "some reason" the pheremones affected (effected? I suck at telling those apart this week for some reason!) her positively, if I remember what I read.<BR/><BR/>(By the way, I'm SO not googling "jubilee.")mordicaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05713766652793265867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-62264230246932148052008-02-26T08:13:00.000-05:002008-02-26T08:13:00.000-05:00If there actually is a bigger percentage or women writers than fans, and you assume most of the people who write comics were originally fans then maybe we already have the natural number of female comic writers?Andyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03785578592890453795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-46771718309923190682008-02-26T07:25:00.000-05:002008-02-26T07:25:00.000-05:00Andy, <BR/><BR/>"True. I wonder how the ratio of men to women comic fans corresponds to men to women comic writers?"<BR/><BR/>Mainstream comics? I bet the ratio of women writing comics is higher than the ratio of women reading comics. I mean, it seems implausible to us because we're comics people, but the comics buying consumer base is *tiny*. Very, very tiny.Kennyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06649763676628428647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-21397863905481274022008-02-25T23:02:00.000-05:002008-02-25T23:02:00.000-05:00"I'm just saying it might be interesting to see someone other than a straight male write lesbian characters. I know that is a shocking thing to say, so full of hate and unfairness."<BR/><BR/>True. I wonder how the ratio of men to women comic fans corresponds to men to women comic writers?<BR/><BR/>"I've heard DC fans turn a debate on diversity in the DCU into a "Legacy Heroes" defense. Had to really bite my tongue on that one."<BR/><BR/>They do have a hard time selling new characters... I really liked the new direction of Shilo as Mister Miracle and the Great Ten but both are under-used. <BR/><BR/>"I think to say that the sexuality of Batwoman plays no part in her delayed series is pretty willfully blind. I think to say that one cannot see the metaphor of the faceless lesbian is at least understandable, as it's an issue of interpretation."<BR/><BR/>Yeah the metaphor is pretty interesting, but I'd be pretty sure it was unintentional.<BR/><BR/>"I've had more than one person tell me that the intensity of the extreme hardcore DC fan scares them."<BR/><BR/>I feel lucky to have never met any of them then :)<BR/><BR/>"The intensity of the hatred and viciousness I see sometimes towards female comic creators scares me much more, so I'm willing to drop the DC thing for now in order to parse this new wrinkle out for myself."<BR/><BR/>Yeah well hopefully its not that common, just a minority of loud people?Andyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03785578592890453795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-48251736128457452772008-02-25T17:37:00.000-05:002008-02-25T17:37:00.000-05:00Crap. I was really hoping for a jubilee.<BR/><BR/>I think Rucka was doing what he thought was best for Montoya's continued use as a character. I was sorry to see her being groomed for the Question, not because of the facelessness, but because her identity was so strong already. But I can understand his concern that, with rare exceptions, non-super characters don't get a lot of play in superhero books. <BR/><BR/>But that was what I liked most about Renee -- that she could demand our attention, despite the lack of costume.<BR/><BR/>As for Batwoman, I echo the sentiments of those saying a comic featuring a lesbian Batwoman is fine, but think that DC really hasn't laid the groundwork to make the average reader want such a book. The iron was hot for a while, and the book would have sold -- but now it's cooled (probably against the chilling power of Time Warner's cold feet), and reader interest needs to be stoked a bit more before it'd be worth publishing. But that *is* what marketing departments are for, and it's hardly an insurmountable problem if they thought the job was worth doing. I hope they eventually get to it. <BR/><BR/>I'd like to be a bit more intrigued by Batwoman before her solo title shows up, though -- or at least reminded why she was intriguing in the first place. As it is, she feels a bit like old news.Rob S.http://www.blogger.com/profile/07331286524477806963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-879021674082360812008-02-25T17:19:00.000-05:002008-02-25T17:19:00.000-05:00Rocketeerz, <BR/><BR/>I'm a *huge* sports fan, much bigger than comics, and I can tell you why sports fans take their teams personally. It's part of our identity. The same thing that makes us happy when they win is what gets hurt when someone insults them. Maybe comic fans are the same way?<BR/><BR/>Reading your thoughts on the mainstream/ uncle analogy, I know I think of both Marvel and DC as creepy pedophile uncles who would kill their own mothers for a dollar! lolKennyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06649763676628428647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-75164543726998436952008-02-25T17:14:00.000-05:002008-02-25T17:14:00.000-05:00<I>Didn't Spider-Woman's pheremones originally make men like her & females dislike her? EXCEPT her co-worker? Who she started taking out to dinner? & Then ended up living with? In San Francisco?</I><BR/><BR/>You mean Lindsay McCabe?David Gallaherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01004233671388887032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-55116608788262337732008-02-25T17:13:00.000-05:002008-02-25T17:13:00.000-05:00Val, <BR/><BR/>"I'm just saying it might be interesting to see someone other than a straight male write lesbian characters. I know that is a shocking thing to say, so full of hate and unfairness."<BR/><BR/>Has anyone other than *maybe* Kevin H. said anything to the contrary? Has anyone on this blog said it's hateful or shocking to have someone besides a straight male write a lesbian character?<BR/><BR/>It seems to me you're setting up a straw man argument here. There has been no debate on how gender or sexual orientation plays into writing skills, just a small debate on Grayson's writing talent and a larger one on Rucka's use of Rene Montoya.Kennyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06649763676628428647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-27081954175005685772008-02-25T16:57:00.000-05:002008-02-25T16:57:00.000-05:00You know, I just thought of something.<BR/><BR/>Going to back to Val's line: "<I>The other day a friend of mine commented that hardcore Marvel fans have a relationship with Marvel like you'd have with a buddy, while hardcore DC fans have a relationship with DC like they would with a creepy uncle that they defend and defend regardless of the uncle's actions.</I>" made me think of two things...<BR/><BR/>1 - People seem to get defensive over their favorite comic companies the same way people get defensive over critizism towards their favorite sports teams. I mean, rip into the Mets, or Yankees or Phillies or whatever and people go CRAZY like you've just insulted them. Why does ANYONE take this stuff so personally?<BR/><BR/>2 - I'm not sure why Marvel is a "buddy" and DC is the "creepy uncle" in anyone's eyes. To me, Marvel has come across the last number of years as the 'arrogant' company and DC has come across as the 'chip on their shoulder' company. I don't think either one really is particularly "buddy-like". I'd describe both as the partly crazy guy down the street who's kind of cool to hang with once and a while, but you still watch yourself around him. <BR/><BR/>I myself find it pretty hard to believe that Rucka made Renee the Question basically because she was a lesbian and it was time to "cover" her up by making her 'faceless'... especially since Renee became the Question in the SAME series that introduced Batwoman (and revealed she was a lesbian) in the first place!<BR/><BR/>However I certainly CAN believe that Batwoman being a lesbian and being connected to the "franchise" Bat-Family is a reason behind the continued delaying of a Batwoman series.<BR/><BR/>I also agree that the series would benefit being written by a woman. Maybe someone like Amber Benson, Jo Duffy (who should still be working in comics althought I'll admit I don't know if she is) or Fiona Avery. Heck if you want to try and make a "name" splash: try and get Christina Z or Rosario Dawson.RocketeerZhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04476021827283026540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-83300594814812405492008-02-25T16:56:00.000-05:002008-02-25T16:56:00.000-05:00I used to think Spider-Girl was gay, and I thought it would be so wonderful if she could just come out in one issue.<BR/><BR/>Then I kept reading the book. But it was fun while it lasted.Valerie D'Oraziohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10083468076834391732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-61106699564072438032008-02-25T16:52:00.000-05:002008-02-25T16:52:00.000-05:00Didn't Spider-Woman's pheremones originally make men like her & females dislike her? EXCEPT her co-worker? Who she started taking out to dinner? & Then ended up living with? In San Francisco? I haven't read any of these comics, nor can I find my source on that (I think it was an old Wikipedia edit of her article) but I totally read that somewhere. That the subtext was clearly meant to be read as lesbian. Anyhow, I TOTALLY would support that version of the character.mordicaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05713766652793265867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-33383855478371460762008-02-25T16:44:00.000-05:002008-02-25T16:44:00.000-05:00oh, I just read what "jubillee" means in slang. I can't win, can I?<BR/><BR/>no tea cakes!<BR/><BR/>I'm done.Valerie D'Oraziohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10083468076834391732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-4365614528880358272008-02-25T16:42:00.000-05:002008-02-25T16:42:00.000-05:00I think if we have one more comment, the post goes supernova...<BR/><BR/>oh...wait for it...<BR/><BR/>fwoooooosh!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR/><BR/>(4 more comments and I think there is a "silver jubillee." tea cakes are served.)Valerie D'Oraziohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10083468076834391732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-48638289446771526632008-02-25T16:32:00.000-05:002008-02-25T16:32:00.000-05:00I cannot comment on why DC dropped a Devin Grayson penned Batwoman title, but I would have to say I'm actually surprised she got the gig for such a project in the first place.<BR/><BR/>Devin had a stretch for a number of years where she got a hold of some major titles/characters... and in my opinion, did a fairly bad job on them, thus killing my interest in every single title. <BR/><BR/>The Arsenal Mini, Batman Chronicles, Catwoman, The Titans, JLA/Titans, BOTH runs on Nightwing, and Year One: Batman/ Ra's Al Ghul.. ALL were titles I had interest in (or was reading monthly at one point). <BR/><BR/>I've met Devin a few times at past comic conventions. She's a nice woman and I respect both her love/enjoyment of comics and her drive. <BR/><BR/>However, I just plain do not like her writing. From what I have gathered, I'm not alone. Her run on Nightwing and the Year One: Batman/ Ra's Al Ghul mini were both much maligned. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps someone just re-thought the idea of having her work on a Bat-family related title?<BR/><BR/>Of course,I'm the guy who thinks that both Dan Didio and Joe Quesada BOTH need to be let go because they force their own pointless maindates on their respective companies and seem (to me) to talk down to comic fans... so who knows.RocketeerZhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04476021827283026540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-65962873346247903062008-02-25T16:31:00.000-05:002008-02-25T16:31:00.000-05:00Spider-Woman is not gay.Davidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12273284254602286534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-6331743708306546662008-02-25T16:30:00.000-05:002008-02-25T16:30:00.000-05:00Also, WOAH the thread went crazy! I hadn't scrolled down there. I'm glad someone is finally calling out women for all the unfair advantages they have in the work place. Like having their jobs threatened for sex. SO LUCKY, them dames. ANYHOW.<BR/><BR/>I kind of agree that making Montoya into the Question was a mis-use of the character, BUT I think that could be redeemed by there being a good Question series.<BR/><BR/>With punching.<BR/><BR/>& the Riddler as the bad guy.mordicaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05713766652793265867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25566450.post-58369841562248504282008-02-25T16:26:00.000-05:002008-02-25T16:26:00.000-05:00Wait...isn't Spider-Woman gay?mordicaihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05713766652793265867noreply@blogger.com